#59 - Aligning for Success: Mentorship, Overcoming Imposter Syndrome, and Coaching Lessons from International Sport with Darren Holder
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Episode Summary:
In this episode of Sport is Life, host Ian Hawkins is joined by performance expert Darren Holder to discuss aligning for success through mentorship, overcoming imposter syndrome, and the powerful lessons learned from international sport. Darren shares his extensive experience in creating bespoke coaching programs that support athletes and coaches in their development, emphasising the importance of continuous learning and personal growth.
The conversation dives deep into the challenges coaches face, particularly in elite sports, and how mentorship plays a crucial role in overcoming obstacles such as imposter syndrome. Darren also highlights how international experiences and evidence-based approaches can transform coaching practices, ensuring sustained success in both personal and professional realms.
Throughout the episode, Ian and Darren explore how tailored frameworks and immersive learning opportunities—such as study tours and exchanges—can help coaches at all levels reach their full potential. With a focus on well-being, performance, and development, this episode offers valuable insights into how sports leadership is evolving for the better.
About the Guest:
Darren Holder
Darren Holder is a passionate advocate for coaching practice and performance, with extensive experience working across Australian and international sports. He specialises in developing customised programs and frameworks for individuals, teams, and organisations to drive learning and continuous improvement, particularly in elite coaching. With a deep understanding of the connection between theory and practice, Darren uses evidence-based research to support coach growth, well-being, and performance.
Having built a robust network across both domestic and international sport, Darren facilitates experiential learning opportunities, such as immersive study tours, exchanges, and summits, to support the development of coaches and performance leaders. His expertise also extends to creating continuous programs and capability frameworks tailored to the specific needs of clients.
Darren is an experienced facilitator, coach developer, and systems convener, with a strong background in coaching, performance leadership, and sport management. He holds a Bachelor of Exercise Science from Griffith University and has contributed to numerous academic articles and book chapters.
Link/s:
LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/darrenholder
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_coachingbetter/
About the Host:
Ian Hawkins, host of "Sport Is Life," is dedicated to showing how sports can transform lives. With extensive experience as an athlete, a coach, PE teacher, community volunteer, and manager at Fox Sports, Ian brings a wealth of knowledge to the podcast. His journey began in his backyard, mentored by his older brother, and has since evolved into coaching elite athletes and business leaders. Ian's commitment to sports and personal development is evident in his roles as a performance coach and active community member. Through "Sport Is Life," Ian shares inspiring stories and valuable lessons to help listeners apply sports principles to all areas of life.
Check Me Out On:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ianhawkinscoaching
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ianhawkinscoaching
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SportIsLife-IanHawkins
Theme Music Artist:
One Day Kings https://www.instagram.com/onedaykings/
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Transcript
Well, if I'm working with a head coach,
Speaker:even prior to.
Speaker:Being appointed in a club, but then
Speaker:certainly once you're in that role within
Speaker:an organisation, it's oneof the things I
Speaker:ensure that they're crystal clear about
Speaker:or or at least aware about. What are we
Speaker:doing to be aligned here. So
Speaker:there is no.
Speaker:There's no there's no surprise, It's
Speaker:no accident. The best
Speaker:organisations over time, so sustainable
Speaker:teams in any professional sport
Speaker:have alignment Yep,
Speaker:Today's guest, Darren Holder is the
Speaker:coaches coach. He coaches those high
Speaker:level coaches that you would hear about
Speaker:quite regularly. He's going to teach us
Speaker:today some really important lessons about
Speaker:how to avoid impostor syndrome through
Speaker:his story, through his experience with
Speaker:coaching. There's also really important
Speaker:message there around alignment and how
Speaker:important that is for the future success
Speaker:of you and whatever. You're
Speaker:involved in he's coached at the highest
Speaker:level W Indies cricket
Speaker:Queensland Rugby league.
Speaker:NRLAFL clubs so he knows his stuff.
Speaker:Enjoy the wisdom of Darren Holder.
Speaker:Hi Darren, how are you going? Good. Ian,
Speaker:how are you mate? Going very well. Thank
Speaker:you. I won't mention names, but you said
Speaker:you had to bumper high profile coach that
Speaker:you work with to make sure you were here
Speaker:for this. I appreciate that. Thank you.
Speaker:No, no, no, he's OK. We'll we'll talk
Speaker:later in the day. Very good.
Speaker:I used to work with the great man Benny.
Speaker:I can back at Fox and he put me in
Speaker:contact with you already had a great
Speaker:conversation with you and. Really looking
Speaker:forward to this chat. Tell us a
Speaker:little bit about your youth experience in
Speaker:sport, Darren, Were you someone that
Speaker:had aspirations to play
Speaker:at the elite level? Yeah,
Speaker:Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity to chat.
Speaker:I know that like, he's been a very good
Speaker:supporter of mine since we've come into
Speaker:contact and it's it's nice to be able to
Speaker:speak to your audience. And so thanks for
Speaker:the chance. Yeah. Growing up in
Speaker:Queensland in the late 70s, early
Speaker:80s, I think everyone played footy in
Speaker:cricket. So that was kind of. Path my
Speaker:parents were working class people and was
Speaker:really fortunate that I had the
Speaker:opportunity to, you know, go to school
Speaker:and be around some competitive
Speaker:people through primary and high school.
Speaker:And yeah, so I played a lot of tennis
Speaker:initially because both parents were
Speaker:tennis players and that kind of led me
Speaker:into cricket and gave me some hand eye
Speaker:skills. Always loved footy so I
Speaker:played rugby league. It was probably the
Speaker:only code you could play in Queensland in
Speaker:that era so diversified a bit now.
Speaker:Yeah, so I was lucky enough to play some
Speaker:junior Rep stuff at primary school level
Speaker:that leads you into the pathways and and
Speaker:got an opportunity to play, you know,
Speaker:regional and then state level kind of
Speaker:rugby league and and cricket up to
Speaker:that sort of, you know, end of high
Speaker:school and then you kind of make some
Speaker:decisions. So I pursued cricket for a
Speaker:period of time. All the boys are getting
Speaker:too big and strong for me in the game of
Speaker:footy so. But new pretty quickly,
Speaker:I came through a really
Speaker:halcyon era of Queensland cricket when
Speaker:they won their first Sheffield Shield and
Speaker:all those things in that mid 90s period.
Speaker:So I played with a lot of those guys that
Speaker:were then stars for Australia in the
Speaker:longer term, you know the.
Speaker:Mars Love, Kasparovich,
Speaker:Pickle, Simons, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker:So I kind of really turned to coaching at
Speaker:a young age was already coaching while I
Speaker:saw high school in some sports, which was
Speaker:great fun just as a bit of a holiday
Speaker:adventure with teachers and other people
Speaker:to offer skills clinics and knew that was
Speaker:kind of a pass. So probably made a
Speaker:decision a little bit earlier than some
Speaker:about my future was maybe not as a
Speaker:professional athlete and going to turn
Speaker:to. Still being involved in sport
Speaker:through coaching and other things so. I
Speaker:studied exercise science at university
Speaker:and was coaching through that period and
Speaker:probably thought being a PE teacher was
Speaker:the fall back. So if all else fails, I'll
Speaker:go and be a PA teacher. But I'm lucky
Speaker:enough to start coaching before I even
Speaker:finish that degree as a, you know,
Speaker:regional development person doing coach
Speaker:education and skill clinics, etcetera,
Speaker:etcetera for Queensland cricket. And then
Speaker:my path kind of took off from there.
Speaker:Awesome. I don't know if you've heard the
Speaker:story and Postercoglu talking about when
Speaker:I think it was in the last year of
Speaker:primary school. They had a school game
Speaker:and the, the, the teacher was just, you
Speaker:know, the assigned teacher wasn't really
Speaker:good. And he basically said he just took
Speaker:over. He was always someone who he loved
Speaker:to coach. I, I started coaching, you
Speaker:know, kids when I was about 1415 as well.
Speaker:So do you find that even at that
Speaker:age as a, as a youngster, it just kind of
Speaker:came naturally to you?Yeah,
Speaker:I think, you know, it seems these days
Speaker:that kids aren't as
Speaker:much students of the game as maybe we
Speaker:were in our generation because they've
Speaker:got so many devices to follow things on.
Speaker:Maybe they just do it in a different way.
Speaker:Maybe that's unfair for me, but we had to
Speaker:read books and really study the game to
Speaker:get better, and I knew that, you know, we
Speaker:have one television in our house. And
Speaker:getting with a couple of sisters, getting
Speaker:access to the TV in the afternoon might
Speaker:not have been always the number one
Speaker:priority. So I was out in the park
Speaker:kicking a footy and playing with mates
Speaker:and whatever else so. You're always
Speaker:trying to find little ways to do skills
Speaker:better. So I was kind of curious and I've
Speaker:carried that forward, I guess, throughout
Speaker:everything that I've done and tried to
Speaker:like even transfer that attribute to
Speaker:others. So I think it's a real key. And
Speaker:you know, really had a
Speaker:teacher who was never in my classroom,
Speaker:teacher at primary school who ended up
Speaker:having a relationship with for a long
Speaker:time as a mentor and he was helping me
Speaker:out as a young cricketer. He played
Speaker:soccer, we compete against each other on
Speaker:the tennis court and anything that we did
Speaker:and we were lucky enough then to just do
Speaker:some skill clinics in holiday. So I kind
Speaker:of. Really enjoyed doing that with
Speaker:him and it became something, it was
Speaker:second nature. Even in the other
Speaker:professions that my mum and dad were
Speaker:involved in, I saw a coaching element,
Speaker:you know, they were just in trade blue
Speaker:collar jobs, but they were always looking
Speaker:after younger members, apprentices and
Speaker:others coming through. So maybe just
Speaker:the type of language and the the
Speaker:things that were done to pass on
Speaker:from one person to the other were
Speaker:inherent in some of the stuff that. I saw
Speaker:as a young boy and then, yeah, grew into
Speaker:as I, as I got older. I love that.
Speaker:I, I, I think anyone in sport can
Speaker:remember that coach or mentor that came
Speaker:through at just the right time that that
Speaker:taught them certain thing. I could rattle
Speaker:off 3 or 4 that were quite impactful in
Speaker:my life. And, and as you said that about
Speaker:your parents, it made me think about just
Speaker:how many of those sort of coaching skills
Speaker:that I would have witnessed and had role
Speaker:modelled to me. That's, that's really
Speaker:powerful. Can you tell me what that
Speaker:butcher?Do you think, how do you
Speaker:learn to be a coach from dad being a
Speaker:butcher? And you know, like came from the
Speaker:Darling Downs where sport was really
Speaker:interesting as a pastime for those
Speaker:people. But you know, working in an
Speaker:abattoir and but always
Speaker:being one of those senior people, like a
Speaker:senior person in a team, you, you're
Speaker:always passing on your skills to someone
Speaker:who hasn't had the level of experience
Speaker:or, or knowledge or amount of reps that
Speaker:you've had. So. It was something that I
Speaker:probably haven't didn't know at the time,
Speaker:but it was certainly prevalent that I
Speaker:when I look back now. Yeah, really
Speaker:cool. And being able to identify that.
Speaker:Now parents which which you know, we
Speaker:often look back at our parents and we
Speaker:know the good things, but we especially
Speaker:growing up, we tend to focus on what
Speaker:wasn't good. So it's good to get in a
Speaker:more mature age and reflect and see the
Speaker:the good stuff that you teach us.
Speaker:So tell me that that particular mentor
Speaker:that you mentioned, what was it about
Speaker:him? Like what does he teach you that was
Speaker:so impactful that still carrying through
Speaker:to this stage in your life?
Speaker:I I still remember even hearing things.
Speaker:His wife's a teacher as well and she
Speaker:wrote books for young young children.
Speaker:Just some of the personal qualities that
Speaker:he displayed. So
Speaker:Even so much as we did
Speaker:have mobile phones. So answering the
Speaker:phone when I pick up the phone because
Speaker:he'd call the home line and just how you
Speaker:would I would receive the call or even
Speaker:when I needed to call him who was living
Speaker:with. His wife's parents at the
Speaker:time, he was a young teacher and, you
Speaker:know, asking him correctly. So just just
Speaker:manners, you know, being respectful,
Speaker:thanking someone for picking you up in
Speaker:the afternoon and taking you to training,
Speaker:which you could do back then, you know,
Speaker:as a teacher you used to go and train
Speaker:with man. He was playing first great
Speaker:cricket in Brisbane and I'd go and train
Speaker:with him as a 12 and 13 year old and we
Speaker:continued a relationship and just I
Speaker:guess. Building the
Speaker:little values that are true to someone
Speaker:over time that when he built his first
Speaker:house I remember. Digging holes that
Speaker:he'll never forget to plant, the trees
Speaker:that now become part of the forestry
Speaker:around his house. So
Speaker:yeah, yeah, you know, whether it be work
Speaker:ethic or respect, just simple
Speaker:matters, the little
Speaker:things. I don't necessarily remember him
Speaker:teaching me how to bowl an off cutter or
Speaker:an outswing or where to, though I do
Speaker:remember the conversations we have
Speaker:driving to and from training in Brisbane
Speaker:back in those days when, you know, I was
Speaker:just a pup and and he was someone who was
Speaker:trying to, you know, work his way
Speaker:through. The the cricket pathway
Speaker:so good. So what I didn't mention at the
Speaker:start when we, when I first introduced
Speaker:you is that you, you are a coaching
Speaker:consultant at the highest level. You,
Speaker:you're currently doing work with swimming
Speaker:Australia before they head off to the
Speaker:Olympics. You work with NRL across
Speaker:cricket, most of the major codes in
Speaker:Australia. How do you go from having an
Speaker:interesting coaching to then being
Speaker:able to be in that space where you are
Speaker:literally coaching the elite coaches?
Speaker:Australia, yeah, it it's a bit of a
Speaker:journey and I guess I gotta thank
Speaker:cricket for that. In terms of the
Speaker:opportunities that they presented me. I
Speaker:did my what I call my apprenticeship with
Speaker:Queensland cricket through the
Speaker:90s and we were lucky to have really
Speaker:good coaches. John Buchanan was the head
Speaker:coach at Queensland at the time that
Speaker:became the Australian head coach very
Speaker:much ahead of his time. And
Speaker:from there I took up an
Speaker:opportunity to go to the West Indies and,
Speaker:and, you know, growing up watching.
Speaker:Wouldn't be so dominant in cricket was
Speaker:remarkable and then to be able to go and
Speaker:work with some of those people in the
Speaker:Caribbean and lived there for a few years
Speaker:as their coaching director was another
Speaker:experience. I'd always believed in
Speaker:walking the walk, not just talking to
Speaker:talk. So you have to go and seek
Speaker:opportunities to be better. So for me,
Speaker:growing on my coaching career,
Speaker:I needed to get into different
Speaker:environments and I felt that Queensland
Speaker:offered me a tremendous foundation. But I
Speaker:wanted to go and learn more and that
Speaker:needed to be. Internationally, so I had
Speaker:that opportunity for a couple of years in
Speaker:the Caribbean, then went to India
Speaker:and so coaching director looking after
Speaker:all the territories and all the coaches
Speaker:coming through their pipeline if you
Speaker:will, including their first class coaches
Speaker:and national team coaches. And then
Speaker:the one box that I hadn't ticked them was
Speaker:highly unlikely in a competitive
Speaker:market here when you only got 6 teams in
Speaker:the Sheffield Shield. No big deal back in
Speaker:those days was to be a head coach of a
Speaker:first class team. So I went to India and
Speaker:did that kind of. On the back of
Speaker:relationships that I built through a lot
Speaker:of coach education and development work
Speaker:that Cricket Queensland and Australia
Speaker:had been doing through the early 2000s.
Speaker:I was offered an opportunity to go on, I
Speaker:guess with a clean slate before IPL
Speaker:came on the table. Go and do that in
Speaker:India. So I coached and was the
Speaker:director of cricket for a team who
Speaker:were for the audience. You
Speaker:know who don't know India. A
Speaker:bit like a Queensland Country team or a
Speaker:NSW Country team playing in national
Speaker:competition. So if you think about, let's
Speaker:use rugby league as an example, you've
Speaker:got the Broncos in Brisbane, you've got
Speaker:the Cowboys in North Queensland. And
Speaker:this team would have been like called
Speaker:Queensland Country based in Toowoomba
Speaker:playing in the NRL.
Speaker:So. So Maharashtra was the name of that
Speaker:state team and. Paul
Speaker:minnows to the Mumbai's and some of the
Speaker:bigger teams in that state.
Speaker:And we had an amazing two
Speaker:years where we got players into Indian
Speaker:teams, we won an All India under
Speaker:nineteens and we did a whole lot of good
Speaker:stuff, being the first non Indian to
Speaker:ever do anything in that at that level
Speaker:over there. So kind of broke the mould a
Speaker:bit just.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah. And it was good fun. So we
Speaker:put a whole lot of good prices in place
Speaker:that I know held true over time. So for
Speaker:me, that was good. Came back here because
Speaker:I was starting to settle down and we were
Speaker:thinking about kids worked in
Speaker:a school and a university and a few other
Speaker:places. And then got back
Speaker:towards working with Cricket Australia.
Speaker:So I was doing some part time work with
Speaker:Cricket Australia that led to a more
Speaker:permanent role. Fortunate that some other
Speaker:mentors and great colleagues in Belinda
Speaker:Clark, who I've known for 30 years,
Speaker:former Australian women's captain and
Speaker:then Pat Howard was running the high
Speaker:performance programme for Cricket
Speaker:Australia. They really championed the
Speaker:course. We need to invest in coaching and
Speaker:coach development. So I was able to sort
Speaker:of lead that coach development.
Speaker:If you like part of our our elite
Speaker:coaching for a period of six or seven
Speaker:years across national teams, but also
Speaker:down to the state. So to answer your
Speaker:question, give listeners a little bit
Speaker:more context cricket than when you're
Speaker:working. I guess with a national body
Speaker:like that here in Australia, it gives you
Speaker:tentacles into other sports. And I was
Speaker:you probably, you know, detect from my
Speaker:upbringing. I always thought you could
Speaker:learn lots from crossing over into other
Speaker:fields. So I. Certainly
Speaker:promoting that within cricket, we needed
Speaker:to get people out of cricket in order to
Speaker:help them get better at cricket coaching
Speaker:so. Working with
Speaker:AFL clubs or the AFL or NRL and
Speaker:different coaches as well as them looking
Speaker:at things more broadly outside of
Speaker:Australia when it came to performance and
Speaker:professional sport became a real
Speaker:passion to push that forward. So we did a
Speaker:lot of crossover. I've been travelling a
Speaker:lot obviously through that period into
Speaker:the Caribbean in India, so had made a
Speaker:number of connections internationally and
Speaker:we just started to push forward. With
Speaker:some crossover and cross pollination that
Speaker:I thought was valuable and I guess that
Speaker:gave me the impetus to think beyond
Speaker:cricket for myself and and then move
Speaker:towards where I am today working across
Speaker:multiple sports and in a little niche
Speaker:sort of consulting business. Awesome.
Speaker:There's so many things I want to dig into
Speaker:there as a cricket fan. Before
Speaker:that, you've given me the fast version of
Speaker:all of the highlights.
Speaker:Tell me, tell me about how hard, Like
Speaker:what was it hard facing the fact that
Speaker:maybe you weren't going to make it at
Speaker:that elite level that maybe you thought
Speaker:you would and then having to transition
Speaker:into the coaching? Was that easy or were
Speaker:there times where?That actually had a
Speaker:significant impact on how you were
Speaker:feeling as an athlete, yeah.
Speaker:I love sport, you know, it's, it's great
Speaker:for every young Australian to be involved
Speaker:in sport and these days girls and boys
Speaker:have so many more opportunities than we
Speaker:probably did growing up. I think it's a
Speaker:great vehicle to teach, you know, life
Speaker:skills and be parts of teams.
Speaker:I think if we're honest with one another
Speaker:and maybe, you know, I really one of the
Speaker:big parts of what I help coaches with
Speaker:today is reflection. And being good
Speaker:at reflecting on experience,
Speaker:knowledge, interaction with others,
Speaker:etcetera. And I think maybe I was OK at
Speaker:that when I was younger and realised that
Speaker:ifI look in the mirror, I'm
Speaker:probably not quite as good as a black
Speaker:standard next to me or a guy down the
Speaker:street, you know, So I was realistic.
Speaker:And and then another thing that I think
Speaker:is so, so important for all coaches, but
Speaker:but anyone. Teams.
Speaker:Individuals is knowing where you're
Speaker:going, like having a vision of what it
Speaker:might look like, and maybe that's
Speaker:something I'm just fortunate to have had
Speaker:that I was pretty clear on what I wanted
Speaker:to do and where I wanted to go.
Speaker:Yeah, the dream of maybe playing
Speaker:cricket and putting that buggy green on
Speaker:or putting on an Origin jersey would
Speaker:be wonderful, yet
Speaker:maybe not realistic when you look at the
Speaker:talent around you and.
Speaker:You work hard, you can only work so hard.
Speaker:I think I, I was, you know, had a fair
Speaker:crack, but knew that maybe I could offer
Speaker:more in another in another area. So had a
Speaker:vision for what you might be able to do
Speaker:to make coaching better and
Speaker:and help.
Speaker:Yeah, advance that cause knowing what
Speaker:I've seen then post obviously the
Speaker:the athletic career is coaching his
Speaker:so well regarded around the world, but
Speaker:not necessarily as much here in
Speaker:Australia, so. Almost got
Speaker:an obligation on the way to try and
Speaker:advance that and be a champion for for
Speaker:coaching and what coaches do because I
Speaker:think we can all think back to a moment
Speaker:in our childhood as young sports people
Speaker:where coaches have a big influence on our
Speaker:life. And
Speaker:that shouldn't be, you know, suppressed
Speaker:or or diluted at all. They're really
Speaker:important figures. So to to help elevate
Speaker:that is really, really important. Yeah, I
Speaker:love that, love that. And
Speaker:particularly in the in the community.
Speaker:Level it's important that those people
Speaker:who are having such an impact one, have
Speaker:the skills, but two, get that
Speaker:acknowledgement for it because you think
Speaker:about how many of them are doing it
Speaker:volunteering and giving up their time
Speaker:and, and I think well, not think I know
Speaker:there's, there's a heap of really
Speaker:positive work we can do in that space to
Speaker:get more of that. I, I imagine,
Speaker:oh man, this is going to go for about
Speaker:four hours. Jason, have you. Who is funny
Speaker:you said that, you know, do you look back
Speaker:at the coat, the playing career? I've got
Speaker:a mate who we've both got kids now that
Speaker:play touch footy together. He was in
Speaker:the Queensland Under 15 team that I was a
Speaker:shadow for at rugby league and we were
Speaker:laughing the other day because we can't
Speaker:even remember playing against each other
Speaker:in rugby league. But we certainly
Speaker:remember playing cricket against one
Speaker:another. He remembers opening the batting
Speaker:against me, opening the bowling and
Speaker:having to to face that. But he played in
Speaker:the second round and went on to have a
Speaker:short NRL career. He played for the
Speaker:Steelers back in those days and a number
Speaker:of the players from that fifteens team.
Speaker:Went on to get contracts as young players
Speaker:and play a little bit of footy and he
Speaker:said dear, kind of, you know, look back
Speaker:and say. I wish I had been named in the
Speaker:team or or not, and I think they
Speaker:named Paul Bowman instead of me and he
Speaker:played Origin, so they probably made the
Speaker:right decision. Probably.
Speaker:I I think I just got caught up in the
Speaker:West Indies cricket thing and called you
Speaker:Jason, but not Jason Holder, Darren,
Speaker:Darren so.
Speaker:Darren, you talked about directing and
Speaker:direction and vision and, and I know how
Speaker:important that is for sport, but it's
Speaker:also important for other areas of life at
Speaker:that same time. Were you putting
Speaker:that same focus and priority on making
Speaker:sure you had that clear direction and
Speaker:vision that include your personal life?
Speaker:You said you were married, you're talking
Speaker:about having kids. Did you make sure you
Speaker:had that going across all areas? Yeah.
Speaker:It takes you time. It takes time for us
Speaker:all to mature
Speaker:individually. I was really clear.
Speaker:From a young age that, you know, I set it
Speaker:up from the start. I went to university
Speaker:and being a PE teacher was a backup. I
Speaker:was going to coach. I, I knew that
Speaker:coaching was really important. I had
Speaker:opportunities to move towards that. And
Speaker:then, you know, you know, you've got to
Speaker:earn your stripes and you can maybe one
Speaker:day climb that ladder. But when I
Speaker:saw opportunities that were in front of
Speaker:me, I was really clear on what I needed
Speaker:to do to get to where I am now.
Speaker:And and building those experiences, I
Speaker:think in the sum of, you know, the
Speaker:experiences you're having in life. So if
Speaker:you can put good experiences together.
Speaker:And learn from those and reflect upon
Speaker:them. You're going to be pretty well
Speaker:played to grow and become a better human.
Speaker:I, I was, yeah, lucky that my
Speaker:partner, we've been together over 20
Speaker:years and we met
Speaker:in sport. So fortunately she
Speaker:understands how sport works. She doesn't
Speaker:work in sport anymore, but had some
Speaker:foundation working in sport at A at A
Speaker:level when she graduated from university,
Speaker:albeit in the marketing area, marketing
Speaker:and sponsorship area. Yet she knew what
Speaker:sporting teams and organisations, how
Speaker:they operated. She was involved with
Speaker:teams that had won premierships here in
Speaker:Australia at professional level. So
Speaker:that was a good thing that she understood
Speaker:my need to chase some experiences at an
Speaker:early stage. Yet I also needed to
Speaker:acknowledge the fact that
Speaker:when the time came, it was probably
Speaker:important for us both to have some
Speaker:stability. And work on what that might
Speaker:look like over time. Back here, my
Speaker:departure from the caravan was actually
Speaker:her Her father passed away and we had to
Speaker:change some personal circumstances. So it
Speaker:became a bump. I was certainly intending
Speaker:on staying there for a little longer but
Speaker:didn't take place and came back. But then
Speaker:within a period of stability back home,
Speaker:was able to then reset and take up
Speaker:the opportunity in India.
Speaker:Knowing that that was all also just going
Speaker:to be a piece of the puzzle. It was never
Speaker:going to be a long term
Speaker:appointment or or engagement. It was just
Speaker:going to be for a period of time and then
Speaker:get back here. So yeah, having, you
Speaker:know, conversations obviously about that
Speaker:and knowing where we're going and what it
Speaker:might look like. You've got to get other
Speaker:people on the journey and, and she was
Speaker:certainly part of that journey and has
Speaker:been and will be and continues to be.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love how that
Speaker:sort of mirrored what you've talked
Speaker:about. In, in the sporting context is
Speaker:that things happen and you need to
Speaker:reflect and you need to adjust and, and
Speaker:it's true for sport, that's true for
Speaker:life, is that not everything is going to
Speaker:go exactly as you want it to. In fact,
Speaker:it's guaranteed. So having that ability,
Speaker:that word you've used a few Times Now to
Speaker:reflect and then of course, take
Speaker:the necessary steps. That's, that's great
Speaker:advice. Tell me
Speaker:moving from that place. Into a
Speaker:coaching like from that elite sport at A
Speaker:at a youth level and then it and knowing
Speaker:that some of those guys that you played
Speaker:with went on to that highest level.
Speaker:Were there moments of self doubt around
Speaker:your ability to pass on those
Speaker:messages and to to
Speaker:get the right results that you you knew
Speaker:you wanted?
Speaker:It's a good question, very good question,
Speaker:Ian, Cos people do talk about that
Speaker:imposter syndrome. I was talking about it
Speaker:with a coach just last
Speaker:week when he went into Origin camp
Speaker:and having to stand in front of the group
Speaker:for the first time, knowing that some of
Speaker:these players had played more games at
Speaker:that level than he had.
Speaker:I think if you do your homework and
Speaker:preparation and know that
Speaker:you have evidence like which has always
Speaker:been a very big.
Speaker:A very important piece for me, there
Speaker:are lots of people in this industry and
Speaker:and certainly across all industry that
Speaker:don't have a empirical
Speaker:base or an evidence base to support
Speaker:their narrative and, and
Speaker:dialogue. I've always had. The
Speaker:evidence behind what I'm going to talk
Speaker:about, whether that be statistic or if
Speaker:it's about a certain element of a game or
Speaker:whether it be. Coming
Speaker:from the research when it relates to
Speaker:coaching science or, or psychology,
Speaker:whatever that might be, it's, it's about
Speaker:doing your homework. So knowing that
Speaker:you have maybe if you don't have the
Speaker:experience personally that you have some
Speaker:knowledge of what is important that you
Speaker:know sits behind that to to draw upon
Speaker:so. Roundabout wide
Speaker:question I I, I feel like I've walked
Speaker:into rooms when I've had,
Speaker:you know, at arms length relationships
Speaker:running high performance courses for
Speaker:cricket is a good example. And I've got
Speaker:some of the greats of the game sitting in
Speaker:front of me who are now transitioning
Speaker:towards coaching. And we were fortunate
Speaker:that they. In cricket, if you
Speaker:wanted to work at the highest level,
Speaker:there was no. You know,
Speaker:cheap ticket to to the top. You had to
Speaker:pass through that philtre if you like.
Speaker:You have to do that course to even be
Speaker:eligible or considered for working with
Speaker:Australian teams. But for me to
Speaker:build relationships with those former
Speaker:players who are now coaching, you need to
Speaker:know your stuff. You need to know
Speaker:you have your ducks in a row and, and
Speaker:know what they've done, how they've done
Speaker:it, know a bit more about them personally
Speaker:and, and be able to call on that and use
Speaker:those examples to get them involved in
Speaker:the conversation. You don't have to know
Speaker:it all, but you need to know how to
Speaker:navigate a conversation with people who
Speaker:might have. Higher levels of knowledge,
Speaker:performance, experience than you.
Speaker:Love it and I love what you said there
Speaker:about evidence because when people are
Speaker:looking for confidence, it's the message
Speaker:that I'm passing on as well. It's like
Speaker:the confidence comes with evidence. It
Speaker:comes with your experience. So
Speaker:sometimes you just need to actually go
Speaker:out there and do it right. So you talked
Speaker:about that, that uncomfortable situation
Speaker:of standing in front of a group of elite
Speaker:athletes. You have to do that for the
Speaker:first time and the first time you do
Speaker:anything, there's going to be some doubt.
Speaker:I think that also is the body's way of
Speaker:kicking you into gear and and getting you
Speaker:prepared to be able to take it on. So I
Speaker:love that go out there and do it, get the
Speaker:evidence and that's going to help you
Speaker:move past itself down. I'm curious
Speaker:because we're going to ask about John
Speaker:Buchanan. Was he someone that came in?
Speaker:You say it was before his time. A lot of
Speaker:the things you're talking about before
Speaker:your time as well, right? Like a an
Speaker:Aussie in India for example. It's just
Speaker:common practise now. Didhe come in with
Speaker:a whole lot of evidence based pract
Speaker:ises? I know he wasn't everyone's cup of
Speaker:tea, but that he had that evidence, Is
Speaker:that why he was so good? 100% , yeah
Speaker:without doubt. And he was the first to
Speaker:start the analytical.
Speaker:Nature of the way that cricket has
Speaker:become, you know, more and more like
Speaker:baseball. There were
Speaker:some people that were part of teaching
Speaker:coaching in Brisbane that he knew that
Speaker:sort of started a system, a
Speaker:company that became a backbone of all
Speaker:sports analysis in Australia and still
Speaker:used by most NRL clubs and AFL clubs.
Speaker:Now, you know, there's obviously a number
Speaker:of products on the market, but they
Speaker:were capturing live, you know,
Speaker:the data and then being able to
Speaker:ball by ball analyse.
Speaker:Trends, patterns and John did that before
Speaker:anyone had even thought about it. And you
Speaker:know, then that was able to be
Speaker:ingested and digested to create
Speaker:little insights. I guess that became part
Speaker:of then future strategy. So I
Speaker:still think back to when we 1st and
Speaker:things haven't changed. You still need to
Speaker:hit the top of off if you want to put the
Speaker:ball in the, you know, flame. I would say
Speaker:the corridor of uncertainty or the avenue
Speaker:of apprehension and we talk about. All
Speaker:the time, but if you're able to
Speaker:bowl 3 maiden overs in a row then you
Speaker:know there is an opportunity for a
Speaker:wicket. Like it might not create a wicket
Speaker:but it might, it will create an
Speaker:opportunity. That was in four day cricket
Speaker:at the time. So it's going to be
Speaker:something in Test cricket. Now that T20
Speaker:things have moved a bit more and you're
Speaker:not going to all three maidens but you
Speaker:can build some pressure, then you
Speaker:create some uncertainty and decision
Speaker:making for the better and that's
Speaker:what it's all about. I guess so. He was
Speaker:extremely good at having things to back
Speaker:up the narrative that he wanted to
Speaker:present and then just be so well
Speaker:organised and planned, which I think
Speaker:prior to John's time in cricket it was,
Speaker:you know, see at the bar after training
Speaker:we'll have a beer and a smoke, you know,
Speaker:sort of thing. Which is why perhaps some
Speaker:of those more larrikin type players
Speaker:didn't necessarily get fully on board
Speaker:with what John was trying to. Achieve.
Speaker:What also struck me then when you were
Speaker:talking is that the commentators now who
Speaker:are really rising to prominent
Speaker:prominence. They know the data, they know
Speaker:the evidence, they know why players do
Speaker:certain things and and they're not
Speaker:talking like through that old school
Speaker:lens. Now there's elements of the old
Speaker:school that that's important. But the
Speaker:more and more that sport goes down this
Speaker:space, it's like they they do start to
Speaker:sound quite dated when they're talking.
Speaker:So that you've given me some context to
Speaker:why that is right, which is why some, I
Speaker:think back to Brian Smith.
Speaker:The NRL coach who I'm hoping to get on
Speaker:here, I used to love listening to.
Speaker:Him talk and I think from what you've
Speaker:said today that's wise because he always
Speaker:brought evidence and he always
Speaker:gave clarification around the things he
Speaker:would talk about which fascinating
Speaker:so I love that
Speaker:you've made it you've shown how important
Speaker:that is now on that
Speaker:you you're in the West Indies when when
Speaker:they were still of power what
Speaker:evidence did you see there yes there were
Speaker:certain things that were already in place
Speaker:yes they. Do have?
Speaker:A certain culture there that
Speaker:mean meant that they had that ability and
Speaker:they were very good at what they played
Speaker:flamboyantly. But what evidence did you
Speaker:see there that you knew Australian
Speaker:cricket needed more of that you
Speaker:bought over when you came back to
Speaker:Australia?
Speaker:Maybe what I saw a little bit of and to
Speaker:begin with was why they weren't
Speaker:successful and what
Speaker:was the reasons that they were
Speaker:successful in the period prior. So they
Speaker:were just about to fall off a little bit
Speaker:when when I was there in the
Speaker:mid 2000s, I started in 2004 in the
Speaker:caravan. Brian was
Speaker:still the captain, Brian Lara. They had
Speaker:some great young talent, but
Speaker:there was some fragmentation that was
Speaker:starting to appear. Between the
Speaker:territories, you know, for those that
Speaker:don't understand, some of those six
Speaker:territories like our six states,
Speaker:independent countries and islands,
Speaker:whereas others are conglomerate violence.
Speaker:So it's quite unique in terms of the
Speaker:situation, what I was able to
Speaker:identify really early through those that
Speaker:had been in that halcyon area
Speaker:when they were so dominant through the
Speaker:80s. And into the 90s, was
Speaker:that all of those players?
Speaker:Primarily grew up in England like they
Speaker:played all their cricket in England so
Speaker:the nursery for West Indies
Speaker:cricket was not the caravan.
Speaker:So and that that's kind of the misnomer
Speaker:until you aren't there and observe and
Speaker:understand their facilities are
Speaker:poor their.
Speaker:Even the environment in which people grow
Speaker:up was more and more
Speaker:dictated to by the British until
Speaker:there was more independence that was
Speaker:given throughout that time and that takes
Speaker:a generation to take hold so.
Speaker:Not that independence is a bad thing, I
Speaker:think that it's certainly a right that
Speaker:those countries have to stand on their own
Speaker:2 feet, yet it creates other challenges
Speaker:for them. And it also then
Speaker:started to slow with plane
Speaker:travel around the world and talent coming
Speaker:from other parts and even the laws of
Speaker:immigration into the UK.
Speaker:Change so there were less and less West
Speaker:Indian players being picked up by leagues
Speaker:and counties to do their.
Speaker:I guess their foundational years and, you
Speaker:know, play lots and lots of cricket to
Speaker:play their trade and learn the game to,
Speaker:to grow into becoming, you know,
Speaker:international stars. You know, World
Speaker:Series cricket probably kicked them along
Speaker:as well with a packet in Australia.
Speaker:Yet you know, Gordon Green grew up in
Speaker:England. You know, they've played most of
Speaker:his cricket in England, all those
Speaker:bowlers, the Volvo shoes and the Ambrose
Speaker:and they played so much bigger than
Speaker:England to become the greatest they were.
Speaker:And then the international cricket just
Speaker:went on, exploded right? There was a 12
Speaker:month calendar, they never stopped and
Speaker:that was foreign to everyone. So it took
Speaker:a while for the dust to settle and people
Speaker:to work out where they were actually
Speaker:going to get better. Because just
Speaker:playing, unless you've got really good
Speaker:mentoring and guidance
Speaker:isn't exposure, is not enough.
Speaker:Just just playing doesn't mean you'll get
Speaker:better. Some will improve if
Speaker:they've got good people around them to
Speaker:help them to identify the things that are
Speaker:doing well and continue to do and and
Speaker:maybe work on those that aren't in in
Speaker:their gaps, but the system
Speaker:for cricket in the Caribbean. Was so
Speaker:challenging whilst I was there
Speaker:to produce talent
Speaker:then. And there was
Speaker:inconsistencies across the system. So
Speaker:with inconsistent preparation, you're
Speaker:probably going to have inconsistent
Speaker:performance. You're still going to have
Speaker:some diamonds in the rough. Yep, Yep.
Speaker:They don't have.
Speaker:Enough of a base in terms of the pyramid,
Speaker:in terms of playing numbers, there's not
Speaker:as many people playing cricket in the
Speaker:caravan as you think. They're playing
Speaker:soccer and basketball and other things
Speaker:and even as.
Speaker:Technology improved then, so did their
Speaker:access to media, and their
Speaker:proximity to the USA provided them I
Speaker:guess, with some visibility for what
Speaker:was an American culture and lifestyle
Speaker:rather than what they had grown up with
Speaker:being very influenced by the British. So
Speaker:things started to shift and move. In a
Speaker:different direction. So I think it's it's
Speaker:never one thing. Yeah. The.
Speaker:The bottom line was that the nursery for
Speaker:caravan cricket had been kind of removed
Speaker:or, or moved away and then
Speaker:culture had shifted over time as well so.
Speaker:Yeah, you're back here. So what did I
Speaker:bring back? I guess I really clear
Speaker:understanding of don't throw the baby out
Speaker:of the bathroom. If things aren't
Speaker:working, then make sure we keep doing it
Speaker:here.
Speaker:And the development was a really key.
Speaker:Pace of the puzzle, whether it be for
Speaker:players or for coaches, you need to have
Speaker:a systematic development process where
Speaker:you're building a strong base if you
Speaker:think that you want the talent to
Speaker:continue to rise.
Speaker:Love that. Fascinating just
Speaker:thinking about like how England was
Speaker:providing that base for them
Speaker:and probably about that same time they
Speaker:they went on a bit of a dip as well, I
Speaker:guess in in a lot of their sports. I
Speaker:think about football and they were
Speaker:providing an incredible base for all
Speaker:these other countries, but not
Speaker:necessarily in their nurturing their own.
Speaker:A lot's changed since then. Even their
Speaker:football team is a is a world
Speaker:class level there, although some may
Speaker:argue that, but they they definitely will
Speaker:be in and around it at this.
Speaker:At the EUR and the
Speaker:cricket team. Has
Speaker:obviously risen a heap in that time as
Speaker:well. Yeah, really interesting. And
Speaker:also what amazes me is
Speaker:like we saw the West Indies out there
Speaker:last year is like just how much
Speaker:ability they still have and yet you're
Speaker:saying that they're pulling that from
Speaker:such a small base there. There still is
Speaker:that potential if they can unlock the the
Speaker:right pathway and that's not for us to
Speaker:solve at the moment but I love just like
Speaker:that the dynamics of the different the
Speaker:cultural shifts and so on and then how
Speaker:you adjust 'cause it's something that. No
Speaker:doubt Australian sport's going to have to
Speaker:deal with, it's what you described
Speaker:before. They've got access to so many
Speaker:different, more things, different, more
Speaker:options to see so many more different
Speaker:things and and there's a generation of
Speaker:athletes coming through aren't
Speaker:necessarily so
Speaker:fanatical about their sport, they just
Speaker:happen to be really good at it.
Speaker:What you talked about
Speaker:how they had were made up of a whole
Speaker:different countries and then they've got
Speaker:all these different factions. What was
Speaker:the biggest frustration that you had to
Speaker:deal with and navigate as the coaching
Speaker:director in that space and how did you
Speaker:bring them together?
Speaker:Another great question.
Speaker:Getting from one place to the next was
Speaker:enough of a challenge. I remember sitting
Speaker:in an airport a whole day to try and go
Speaker:to see some games and not get anything
Speaker:until the night after they finished.
Speaker:Yeah, so there's a there's an airline in
Speaker:the Caribbean called Liat Liat and
Speaker:it stands for Leave Island Anytime. So
Speaker:yeah, it's just one of those you have to
Speaker:navigate just to travel around the place
Speaker:was a tough.
Speaker:Understand that, you know, when you're an
Speaker:independent island country, then you've
Speaker:got your own education system, police
Speaker:force, military.
Speaker:Currency. There are so many
Speaker:different national products, if you like,
Speaker:and national entities.
Speaker:They're not all aligned, so alignment is
Speaker:something in sport that I
Speaker:couldn't. Elevate higher
Speaker:than being it's probably in the top two
Speaker:or three priorities for
Speaker:any organisation alignment ofthe key
Speaker:spine. So when you've got a
Speaker:board over there that's made up
Speaker:the West Indies cricket board of people
Speaker:from. Maybe eight or nine
Speaker:different countries. That's hard to start
Speaker:with. And then then once you get to that
Speaker:point, you've got OK, chair or the
Speaker:president that then rolls
Speaker:down through the CEO, who's going to be
:00 to to have that person not
:seen as being biassed towards
:his nation of heritage. And
:then you've got other employees. So in
:some ways it was easier for me being an
:outsider coming in to help. That than it
:was for some of those people who had come
:from some of the Caribbean nations that
:were working for the board.
:Yeah. So alignment and it is
:somewhat Federated like a sport is in
:Australia and the, you know, the
:territories make up the organisation like
:our states do in some of our national
:team sports. Pulling in different
:directions is then difficult, right,
:because everyone wants their piece and
:wants to do it their way. So having
:people on the same page and heading in
:the same direction, is that the next
:challenge? So they were
:tough. The coaches were thirsty for
:knowledge that they hadn't had any
:attention, any feedback, any
:opportunities to have people around them.
:And I'm, you know, proud that the guy
:that's now that coach is someone who
:never played first class cricket or
:played a little bit for Jamaica was. A
:rough, tough kid in Jamaica when
:I first got there and I. Said to him, I
:said, my Andre, you need to
:really knuckle down here and be in this
:for longest 'cause you're one day coach
:the West Indies. And I'm, you know,
:really proud that he is coaching the West
:Indies now because even still through
:that period it was they were names, they
:were getting people from outside
:internationals. And he's been in
:the long haul and continued to apply his
:trade and skills and took opportunities
:to coach their women at different times
:and. Their Academy and, you know,
:different experiences that have led him
:to be able to.
:That laid the West Indies now,
:and that's great, but it takes
:time. It takes time for coaches to, you
:know, build their craft. And
:so the question, yeah, alignment
:hard getting people on the same page. But
:then when you I, I was able to
:spend time with the coaches and provide
:opportunities for education and growth
:and development and feedback, they left
:it up. They were always really, really
:receptive because they hadn't had a lot
:of that. Previously.
:Fantastic. I'm fascinated around the
:alignment. It's something I've done with
:businesses. How do you go
:when in a professional sports space,
:there is a business element. There is
:the like the spine of the
:coaching group, there's the spine of the
:team. Like how do you go
:with that alignment piece when there
:would be certain things, I imagine
:above your area of control?
:What sort of influence can you have there?
:Well, if I'm working with a head coach,
:even prior to.
:Being appointed in a club, but then
:certainly once you're in that role within
:an organisation, it's oneof the things I
:ensure that they're crystal clear about
:or or at least aware about. What are we
:doing to be aligned here. So
:there is no.
:There's no there's no surprise, It's
:no accident. The best
:organisations over time, so sustainable
:teams in any professional sport
:have alignment Yep, of
:their leadership spine and I think it's
:the one thing that undoes us more than
:others will. I was in a forum with some
:looking at high performance systems
:recently and that was the thing that I
:highlighted as one of the, you know,
:points that I think is still. Unknown
:or that we need to do more for
:because it holds. High
:performance systems back. So if you have
:the chair of the organisati
:sitting on onthat board or committee at
:the top, whatever that however it's
:structured, then through your CEO or
:that person that's leading
:the organisation across allparts of the
:business into whatever department, it's a
:baseball department or basketball
:department, football, cricket, the head
:of the performance director, if you will,
:or general manager. And then and the head
:coach. And and even to the
:captain, that spine
:being aligned then.
:You're half a chance. If you haven't,
:then there will be a certain
:amount of energy that's spent trying to
:get those people aligned and get them
:on the same page. Now you certainly want
:disruption at certain levels and people
:with diversity of thought, your
:coaching and sports, science and
:performance staff and everything else. I
:think that in terms of vision and where
:you're going as an entity, as
:an organisation, that needsto be clear
:now how you go about it can have some
:inputs at different levels and different
:stages, but you want everyone heading in
:the same direction. At least pointing the
:boat where we want to go together and
:then knowing what that looks like and
:what success is and if we have different
:views of what success is and where we're
:going, it just makes it harder to get
:there, just makes it so much harder.
:Yeah, talking about John Buchanan and I
:think he was able to give that really
:clearly to the Australian cricket team
:and they wanted to be set a mark that,
:you know, overcome what the the West
:Indies had done in that previous
:generation. And and that was for
:him. He used the analogy of, you know,
:what's our Everest and he still uses that
:to this day in terms of his own
:consulting businesses. So what
:what is that for us and get everyone on
:board with. A picture or.
:An understanding of where Everest is and
:what we need to do to get there and how
:we're going to do that. And then we'll go
:about filling in the detail but without
:vision for where we're going. And then
:alignment towards that from all parts of
:the organisation. Just makeit so hard.
:So I look at the San Antonio Spurs are
:terrific at it. The Melbourne Storm very,
:very good. Like, you know, you've got
:teams that probably pop up the period of
:time when Richmond was dominating the
:AFL. You know, people move and times will
:change, but they had. Of that group
:and I used to see them when I'd pop into
:certain locations and they would meet
:regularly. And I'm talking about the the
:chairwoman, the chairperson, the CEO,
:the head coach and the.
:They'd be all together having breakfast
:regularly. And you know I say well that
:makes sense. Well, yeah, but it's not
:that common. Yeah. Yeah,
:I, I, I think about all the. How you see
:it play out in the media and like the
:Swans is the other team that comes to
:mind is it just teams?They've had
:sustained success and, and the first
:thing you know how they play, you know
:what they stand for, what they don't
:stand for. And then you also see those
:sort of perennial strugglers and,
:and you see that that there's, there is
:an alignment, there's always infighting
:and even some of those teams that have a
:bit of a mixed level of success, you can
:tell that there's something not quite
:clicking at one of those levels.
:Getting having that, that right
:personality, like there's only so much
:you can do. How important is it to have
:that right personality in one of those
:positions to be able to help?
:Lead in that space to make sure that
:alignment continues.
:Yeah, I think. Having
:everyone understand their role, like the
:clarity of role and what you feel is
:important, but also people just being
:able to leave their ego out of it, right?
:Like. Too many
:times we get.
:Clouded in sport because we have
:passion, that's why we're involved. It's
:great to be involved with the games that
:we love. Yet boards in
:sport are probably less like they are
:in industry successful business
:where you have
:a portfolio of people who have different
:strengths from different fields who are
:supporting decision making for.
:The the CEO and others around them. Now
:we ask people sitting on boards in sport
:most of the time who?
:Love the club or the team and want to be
:there, but they're there and they
:sometimes their judgement is about it's
:passionate and it's really
:invested in the entity but
:they will have opinions as well rather
:than just being able to offer expertise
:in their area of specific knowledge
:so. That makes it
:harder. So I think that people need to
:understand we all have roles. We're
:really clear on those roles, that all the
:different levels and that everyone's in
:it for the same reason. That's why the
:vision's so important. What we're getting
:after and if we're not doing stuff that
:helps us to get there, then why are we
:doing it? So not being
:distracted by that and keeping what
:you're keeping. The main thing. The main
:thing is, is critical for a role in that
:journey. Love it.
:You mentioned having that vision. It's
:so crucial.
:What about that, that sense of purpose
:like does does that why
:play into the vision or is that something
:that you actually would set up for them
:separately?
:Yeah, I I think, yeah. So
:they're, they're probably tied together
:vision for me and
:certainly spent a lot of time with
:coaches understanding this for what
:they're trying to do with a certain group
:is based on who And now like
:what we can get to over a
:period of time knowing what you have at
:your disposal and the and the assembly or
:squad or a group or whatever it might be.
:Purpose is really longer term. Hopefully
:it's a bigger picture thing. So
:vision might be more seasonal if you want
:to talk about it in business language,
:more of an operational plan, whereas
:the strategy that's you know much more
:towards the future. Why
:do we exist? What are we here for
:and the organisations that arereally
:clear on who they are. So the the purpose
:probably relates a little bit more back
:to identity. Who are we and why? Why are
:we here?
:And then the vision is then now how we're
:going to act that out and what's
:achievable now with who we currently
:have. So you want to try and have
:alignment between those two things also,
:which allows you to
:the purpose piece underlies everything
:can really keeps you on track hopefully
:when when things are going tough and.
:Yeah, love it. We've talked a lot
:about those. Skills
:that you use in sport and also, you know,
:we touched on the impact of the vision
:and direction and taking that into your
:personal life. What what's it apart from
:those areas? What, what is something that
:sport has taught you that has just been
:so prevalent in your personal life and
:being so positively impactful?
:Yeah, I instantly go to
:relationships and people.
:There's nothing like being in a team.
:And I think that that brings.
:A different dimension to who an
:individual can be.
:So having interactions with others
:is is a really important piece of
:being involved in sport. But it's
:certainly something that then I think
:I've been able to. Learn
:has helped with the way that I go about
:what I do currently in,
:in terms of supporting coaches and being
:a learning partner with coaches. I
:certainly don't see myself as being a
:mentor necessarily. I might have some
:experience that I can share by if
:anyone asks, you know, what do you like
:to see myself as a learning partner? I'm
:learning just as much as the the coach
:that I'm working with might be. And
:trying to help them navigate things
:better because I might be seeing it a
:little differently. Looking at it from a
:different lens than being joined to the
:weights. So um.
:The relationship to be able to get to
:know the person and be able to be there
:with them, alongside them, not
:above them or you know what, just
:standing side by side, shoulder to
:shoulder. I think that's something you do
:in sport and I try to do now what I've
:learned to to be a support agent and a
:learning partner for, for coaches and
:performance staff or whoever it might be.
:CEOs and others working
:in organisations, they allwant the same
:thing. They all want to see their team
:win at the end. Season yeah, so
:good and that's everything I've learned
:whether it's coaching people through
:business in a job,
:in a sporting environment, it's the same
:thing right it's like you're in there
:together with them and there's always
:learning when you're the coach there's
:something that will happen some unique
:individual you're working with will
:always show you something where
:you like oh wow like I hadn't thought
:about it like that and I think that's one
:of the beauties of it for me from like
:personal perspective is like.
:Imparting knowledge, but you're getting
:so much of that back even today, right?
:Like I'm, I'm getting so many great
:ideas just from from just from your
:story. And I think just thinking about it
:now out loud, it's like that's one of the
:powers of, of this medium is to you.
:You're not just sharing your story like
:you're sharing what you've learned.
:You're sharing lessons that other people
:can learn. And yeah, I appreciate the,
:the depth you've gone into today, Darren.
:I don't just scratching the surface, but
:I think when you mentioned that too and
:like you know, you talk about story.
:Not that I've tried to craft anything to
:that, but I think if coaches can learn to
:build a story about who they are,
:their identity, where they're going, and
:and then even that transposes itself
:into clubs, you know, like in what is the
:story of you know us and tell that story,
:it helps people to see. Where we've come
:from, where we are, where we're going
:really clearly. So
:yes, storytelling has been
:something that culture across, you know,
:our indigenous culture or other cultures
:around the world has been so important
:for generations well before us. And we'll
:be there well after us. So if we can
:embrace that as coaches within our own
:small patch right now, it's going to help
:us to. Certainly
:project. The messages and the narrative
:clearly and you know, using a variety of
:different ways, whether it just be
:as a writer or if it be, you know,
:through visuals and
:words and language and other things that
:that support that artefacts as well. I
:think it helps to build that cultural
:element which is so important for teams
:to tie into. Yeah, well said.
:And my thoughts straight away goes to the
:impact that our storytelling has.
:Because we think about what you just
:described about these ancient cultures
:they knew it had been passing on stories
:for. Thousands of years, like what can
:we take from that So.
:I know as a coach, I, I do a lot of
:storytelling to my children. Some they
:would enjoy more than others, but but
:I'm, I'm just interested, you've got
:kids, right? Like how do you apply that
:sort of same storytelling?
:Element to you as the dad.
:I well, the reflection of the
:storytelling, the two pieces they
:probably dislike the most. You know, as
:soon as we get in the car on the way home
:from footy or netball or water pile, I
:was like, how did you go?And they they
:not so loaded question straight away,
:right?And I'm just
:trying to get them to think about how
:they went and talked to me about it and
:they don't want to talk like, so now I've
:got to the point where they've said,
:dad, ask us if you're allowed to ask
:questions before you ask the questions.
:Boundaries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's
:like, can I ask you a question? And then
:if I get it, yes, then we can start to
:dig into it, not just leave them alone.
:We'll come back to it. But the
:storytelling, I think, is the other part.
:I'm one for context and maybe listeners
:to pick that up. I don't think it's easy
:to understand the whole without
:understanding the parts that kind of go
:with that. So sometimes my stories can
:be two steps back to take one step
:forward, which the kids dislike that I
:want all the contacts. I just want to get
:to the point and it's, you know, fast
:food society with phones and Snapchat and
:everything else. But I do
:think that having. In in a
:sporting situation. Some
:knowledge and respect for what's
:come before you is really important to
:shape a more meaningful attachment
:to the the
:identity of what we're trying to project.
:So yeah, that's certainly helped
:with what I do in a
:professional position. But personally,
:I've still got to work out when to wipe
:my lip and just get to the point. I think
:I think we all are right as parents are
:always learning. I don't know if it is
:just necessarily. Umm,
:social media and having a device. Because
:I can remember having that same
:frustration at my mum when I was like
:trying to learn some assignment and she's
:like trying to give me the whole back
:story. I'm like, just give me the answer.
:Like I don't want to, I don't want to
:know about it. Yeah, yeah, kids, I just
:want to move on to the next thing. Maybe
:that's what it is. That's it. Yeah. Maybe
:that's a whole other conversation around
:the school system. But anyway.
:So. Everything
:you described is just so positive of the
:impact it's having for people. What do
:you see as the best impact that
:sport has, whether it be at
:the elite level, whether it be with you,
:your youngsters, at that more of that
:community level? Like what? What do you
:see as the most positive impact that
:sport has for us as a society or as a
:community?
:I see sport differently.
:I'm fortunate that I have travelled
:extensively and and spent time in other
:cultures where sport probably means
:different things. You know, comparing us
:to the US, there's
:we're not a recruitment sport like a
:sport is not about recruitment in
:Australia per SE, it's about development.
:We just don't have a population that
:allows us to be. Churned right
:they they do that at the time so and
:then as a result it becomes quite
:transactional and. You can say that
:for round ball football, soccer as
:well, but it looks like a transactional
:sport. I think tennis is quite
:transactional because of the way in which
:it generates the dollar and it's a
:business from an entertainment
:perspective. I
:think by and large, you know, it's
:important in Australia, still tribal like
:that, That's part of it. So
:it teaches us those team skills that.
:We take into other parts of our life.
:It's it's temporary. We don't
:stay necessarily in sport our whole life,
:but it's an important part of what we do
:in our life so.
:That to me is the fabric restaurant. We
:get behind our tribe and our
:tribes are many. It might be that
:we support a tribe in the summer, in the
:winter and different sports and or
:multiple tribes in the winter across
:different codes and then when it comes to
:an Olympic year like we are now.
:We'll get behind any Australians you know
:doing well across all the sports of the
:Olympics. It certainly is an expectation
:when it comes to some of those larger
:sports like cycling and swimming and
:others, hockey perhaps. So I think
:it's just it gives us some purpose
:for our nation as well to guide us
:forward. And kids, it gives them the
:dreams, you know, to be able to go out
:there and play, which fun where we
:live in a great climate most of the year.
:We were lucky it's the sun shining so
:kids can get outside and compete.
:So that they can dream about one day
:being those idols that they see
:representing in professional and or
:Olympic sport on the biggest stage.
:Oh, I love that. And what really struck
:me about that is that how much it
:teaches us, particularly from that
:national level, is that we can rise above
:a perceived level of what people think we
:should achieve. Like Australians have
:done that in the sport for for
:centuries now, just like overachieving.
:You know, that's a great message for
:everyone. Is that just because there's a
:perception that perhaps. Due to
:numbers or any other restriction, you
:can't there's. There's always a way.
:Always Yeah, yeah,
:it's and it sends the
:tingle down his spine. I don't
:understand. Against the hairs on the back
:of your neck. Stand up when you see
:teams that are doing well for Australia
:and or your your your club of choice.
:You, you know, excited by it. So it
:brings us passion. Yeah, it's great yeah
:and and I think about as a long suffering
:paraffin. The, the, the amount of years
:where I've gone, you get to the
:ground, you're like, well, you're getting
:ready to go and you're like, do I really
:want to go today and subject myself to
:this? But then you get there and then the
:crowd starts walking in together and, and
:it's that sense of belonging that you're
:part of something. The energy of the
:crowd. There's nothing like it. You
:described it, whether it's at a, at a
:real local level where you're connecting
:with other people to, to that sort of
:tribalism. There's nothing like it. And I
:remember. My masters talking
:about. And he's someone who's who's quite
:intellectual. And he said
:there is no experience in life like those
:5 minutes in a change room after year 1.
:He said nothing can replicate it.
:And yes, it's winning, but
:it's more than that. It's like you've
:been in something together. As a
:group for a higher purpose and to
:see that come to fruition. Yeah, it
:magic, magic like you said, it's the
:spine tingling stuff yeah, I mean.
:You know, change room on Sunday here in
:Brisbane at a rugby league, one of the
:QRL senior matches, and
:I know they talk, just reminded people of
:part of their purpose for that particular
:game. There was one of the players in the
:team had lost a family member, someone
:else's birthday and there was another
:fact, you know, there was three things
:that just gave them a real sense of. Why
:are we going to get the job done today?
:You know, like, so I think we have lots
:of little examples of that
:every Saturday and Sunday, whether it be
:in netball or football,
:cricket, there's it gives us a
:sense of coming together, like you said,
:belonging to A cause and we're trying to
:achieve some stuff together, which is
:remarkable. And we probably as a nation
:always thought of ourselves as the
:underdogs and that being hard to achieve.
:So let's, you know, get after it and. You
:know, show people that we can. So like I,
:I think there's a real sense of
:achievement and pride in in doing that,
:which is tremendous. You know, like it's
:great. Yeah. And I think about the impact
:that that that can have on, on the young
:people. I remember just down at the local
:level, one of the parents coming up and
:saying how when when we got assigned,
:when we were playing in the in the top
:team there, we got assigned to some of
:the junior clubs and and like how
:they're, you know, him and his son and
:his mate sons still talk about what an
:impact that. Bad for them and and this is
:the opportunity for people is like
:you can just create a lasting impression.
:You talked about it when you talked about
:that mentor that had left such a lasting
:imprint like never
:underestimate that the the positive
:impact you can have from from those
:moments of of lifting someone else up
:right yeah, yeah. I've got a really
:close friend who's a sports psyche He's
:82 and lives on the West Coast at
:Santa Cruz in California and we always
:talk about. Is never neutral, just to
:that point. And it's such a
:great line. You know, like as a coach, as
:a parent, you whatever you do is either
:having a positive or negative impact. So
:if you can just keep that in the back of
:your mind that your influence is never
:neutral. It certainly puts you
:on the right path to make sure you
:present yourself in the right way and
:have the right energy and body language
:and demeanour and interaction with
:others. That helps give them
:something positive that they walk away
:from that interaction rather than it
:being something they don't want to return
:to. Yeah, fantastic. Well said.
:You do a lot around evidence based and
:and and a lot of that would be technical
:and a lot of that would be team and
:elements. How much work do you do in that
:mindset space to get any of them prepared
:from a mental perspective to?
:To tackle whatever it is that they've got
:coming up. It kind
:of depends. So it must be honest and
:the organisation or the team or the coach
:needs to be ready for it, some people.
:May be shy away from mindset because it's
:not something that they are able to
:understand clearly and how it can impact
:a group or. But then when
:you are open and ready for
:it, it's certainly something that you
:know you can start to have a real. Thrust
:towards it's just
:since last weekend, one of
:the fun projects I work with is the PBR
:Pro Bull riding.
:That's certainly a pro bono thing and I
:just have been lucky enough to spend a
:bit of time with bull riders over the
:years and think it their courage is
:remarkable. Like to get on the back of A1
:tonne animal and try and hold on for 8
:seconds is borders on crazy right
:So. One of their
:more experienced guys in New South Wales.
:Who's been a great
:servant of their industry and what they
:do is now the captain of the in the
:middle of an Origin series at the moment,
:just like we, we know in rugby league
:where they pick up NSW and for Queensland
:and their team captain
:who's starting to double towards coaching
:if you like, because there's not really
:coaches in that sport. Is
:trying to shift their mindset for this
:weekend in Newcastle. So we've been
:talking for the last week just about how
:we might do that and how he can maybe ask
:them some questions to get them thinking
:a little bit more about what's important
:rather than what's not. So to answer your
:question and myself, I think, you know if
:we can have. Small little
:thematic ideas
:that help bring, again, just
:like a vision, the vision is longer to
:him, a bigger piece. But the mindset is
:then about creating small stimulus
:to align a group for a
:particular point in time or you know,
:a small period of time. But that's
:certainly one way to
:give us clarity in terms of our own.
:Performance and role in that performance.
:And also just to ensure that we're paying
:attention to the things that matter
:rather than the things that don't and not
:being distracted by those things that can
:hold us back. So there's a,
:there's so many important mental skills
:that we, you know,
:could, could discuss. And I think sport
:is now embracing mental skill and mental
:performance development more with open
:arms. Once Upon a time, you saw the
:sports psychologist. In Australia we call
:them that which is probably at our.
:Detriment in other parts of the world,
:they call them mental performance
:consultants. So for me it is
:about mental performance. It's part of
:performance and what we do above the
:shoulders is just as important as the
:physical guys that we have 5 and 6 in
:every club that prepare our bodies for
:the weekend. Now we could
:invest just as much time when it comes to
:the mental side of most games. Not you
:know, there's some that that will happen.
:Automatically, and in many cases, the
:coach is the deliverer of that, the head
:coach is the person that's delivering
:that message and very, very well skilled
:at it so to provide. A coaching resource
:that might have some mental skill, mental
:performance training can be better than
:going back to the sports psychologist,
:which is, you know, in our medical
:deficiency model, you know, you go and
:see them when you got something wrong.
:Well, I don't think we actually want to
:be enhancing performance rather than
:going to see someone when we've got a
:clinical ailment that is probably needs
:to be referred to a specialist anyway.
:Besides the rather than being true in
:sport and all the other areas, why
:wouldn't it be mentally rather than being
:reactive being. Active with these things
:so that we're always ahead of the curve.
:That's cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
:yeah. And, and I love that what you
:mentioned in there around the mindset is
:a lot of things you've already mentioned,
:which is the vision, which is
:around evidence
:around relationships that they're all
:part of it, right. So
:yeah. And knowing
:the individual like you, so knowing what
:triggers might be able to just reset and
:recalibrate that person to allow them to
:have clear thoughts, not allow them to
:get in their own way and keep them out of
:their own way and let them move forward
:with some freedom to have some joy and
:and certainty about what's required.
:Yeah, well said, Darren. I really
:appreciate you giving us a bit of insight
:in into who you are and how you operate,
:taking a lot of fantastic learning out of
:this. And I know that the listeners would
:have absolutely as well appreciate you
:giving me this time, especially when
:you're in the middle of a quite a busy
:time when Olympics coming up and so on.
:Thank you very much, mate. My pleasure.
:Anytime. Thanks, Anne. Cheers, mate.
:I love the answer Darren gave when he
:talked about the tribal nature of sport,
:on how sport teaches us the concept of
:team, of backing our tribe,
:connecting with our tribe and how that
:can map across all areas of our life.
:Definitely add that to your game plan.
:Also add the piece that he talked about
:around alignment. You need to have a
:really clear vision of what
:success is for you or for your
:team or for whoever you are involved
:with, and you need to have everyone
:heading in the same direction.
:O add that from a personal perspective
:and have a think about for your game
:plan, how you can alley that to whatever
:team or organisation you're involvedin.
:Now, if you haven't already, please make
:sure you subscribe. I want to get even
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