#169 – Mastering Mental Performance with Joel Curtis
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Episode Summary:
In this powerful and thought-provoking episode of Sport is Life, Ian Hawkins is joined by performance psychologist Joel Curtis for a deep dive into the mental game behind elite success. With over two decades of experience working with athletes, corporate leaders, and creatives, Joel brings grounded, no-fluff wisdom to the table, challenging common myths about motivation, mindset, and pressure.
From the raw truths behind performance anxiety to the importance of embracing discomfort, Joel unpacks why the pursuit of "happiness" often falls flat and how discipline, self-awareness, and values-driven action create real fulfillment. He shares personal stories, client breakthroughs, and actionable strategies to reframe failure, bounce back from setbacks, and build inner strength on and off the field. Whether you're an athlete, business leader, or simply striving for personal growth, this episode offers a roadmap to mastering your mindset for long-term performance.
About the Guest:
Principal Psychologist | Sport Psychologist | Speaker
Owner, Endeavour Wellness – Sydney, Australia
Joel Curtis is the Principal Psychologist and founder of Endeavour Wellness, a leading private psychology practice based in Sydney since 2009. He holds a Master’s Degree in Sport Psychology from Western Sydney University and brings over a decade of experience helping individuals and teams unlock their full potential.
With a strong belief in the power of personal growth, Joel takes a client-centred, non-judgmental approach, working closely with individuals to understand their unique stories and tailor strategies that promote resilience, happiness, and success. His work spans a broad spectrum — from supporting everyday mental wellbeing to enhancing elite performance.
As a registered Sport Psychologist, Joel works with athletes, coaches, and professional teams across multiple disciplines to strengthen their mental game and sharpen their competitive edge. In addition, he partners with business owners, executives, and sales teams to enhance leadership, communication, and high-performance culture in the workplace.
Joel is passionate about helping people thrive — in sport, business, and life.
Link/s:
Website: www.endeavourwellness.com.au
Email: joel@endeavourwellness.com.au
LinkedIn: Joel Curtis - linkedin.com/in/joel-curtis-a5b2b321
About the Host:
Ian Hawkins, host of "Sport Is Life," is dedicated to showing how sports can transform lives. With extensive experience as an athlete, a coach, PE teacher, community volunteer, and manager at Fox Sports, Ian brings a wealth of knowledge to the podcast. His journey began in his backyard, mentored by his older brother, and has since evolved into coaching elite athletes and business leaders. Ian's commitment to sports and personal development is evident in his roles as a performance coach and active community member. Through "Sport Is Life," Ian shares inspiring stories and valuable lessons to help listeners apply sports principles to all areas of life.
If you’re working too hard too quieten the headnoise, check out my Performance Meditation training here - https://www.ianhawkinscoaching.com/performancemeditation
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Transcript
My wife asked me the other day, I made a phone call to something.
Speaker:She goes, were you a bit nervous?
Speaker:And I like, yeah, I was.
Speaker:And she goes, oh, 'cause you said made a lot.
Speaker:You said this and that.
Speaker:I went, yeah, I was, I don't know why.
Speaker:I just felt nervous about making that phone call.
Speaker:Like, okay, I wasn't embarrassed.
Speaker:I'm like, yeah, she got me.
Speaker:It was how it was and alright, no problems.
Speaker:I think if you can just honor it and be comfortable being
Speaker:uncomfortable, that just allows you space to then be able to move on.
Speaker:So I appreciate everyone's got their own sort of approach to it, but for me it's
Speaker:more just, let's be honest about it.
Speaker:Let's you know, own it.
Speaker:If you're feeling something you don't carry on like a bulled, you just.
Speaker:Takes space.
Speaker:Take time.
Speaker:Feel it.
Speaker:I try and analyze it pretty quickly.
Speaker:All right, Joel, you said this or you said that, or This has happened.
Speaker:That's happened.
Speaker:All right, mate.
Speaker:Stop the room's.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:So who tells you to come here?
Speaker:Oh, my wife.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:They all do make a joke.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Not be rocketry to wise, you know what I mean?
Speaker:Like Yeah.
Speaker:That, that's how it starts, right?
Speaker:Someone's gotta tell 'em.
Speaker:What if the key to improving your performance isn't just about effort,
Speaker:but about the way you structure your life and your mindset.
Speaker:Today's guest is Joel Curtis, a psychologist and the founder of
Speaker:Endeavor Wellness in Sydney with a masters in sports psychology.
Speaker:Joel has worked with athletes, coaches, and business leaders to help
Speaker:them perform at their best mentally, emotionally, and professionally.
Speaker:In this episode, Joel opens up about the power of structure in
Speaker:your work, sport, and personal life.
Speaker:He explains why self-reflection and self-compassion are essential
Speaker:to growth and why learning through experience is far more valuable
Speaker:than what you get in textbooks.
Speaker:If you're a growth driven man who loves his sport, this episode is packed with
Speaker:practical insights to help you level up.
Speaker:Joel shares how creating a safe space for yourself and for others
Speaker:can unlock new levels of success.
Speaker:And while learning from your own journey is the key to moving forward, this
Speaker:one's all about empowering you to get the best outta yourself, whether it's
Speaker:on the field, in business, or at home.
Speaker:Hit play and take your mental game to the next level.
Speaker:Hey Joel, how you going?
Speaker:Good, thanks Ian.
Speaker:I appreciate you, uh, having me on the show today, mate, I appreciate it.
Speaker:Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker:I'm really looking forward to diving into your expertise.
Speaker:Uh, you're a psychologist, like generally, but you also do specifically
Speaker:around sport business too, so Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's areas I'm really interested in.
Speaker:Yeah, nice foot.
Speaker:In your bio, you talked about how you, you're dedicated to understanding
Speaker:people's story, and I love that because this is all about storytelling
Speaker:and about sharing your story.
Speaker:So can you share with us how you got into psychology?
Speaker:Was it from your own experience, something you're interested in?
Speaker:Something specific?
Speaker:Yeah, it's a bit of a unique story.
Speaker:I always, um, I always like telling it 'cause it's not quite your stock standard.
Speaker:Went to school, went to uni, graduated, started practice,
Speaker:and happily ever after it.
Speaker:And it's a little bit more convoluted than that.
Speaker:I, um, I, that's why I enjoy talking to people 'cause I really
Speaker:love it, like yourself, hearing people's stories and diving into it.
Speaker:So, um, appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker:So yeah, I, um, I did my HSC, uh, I won't give away my age, but it was a
Speaker:little while ago, um, and, uh, didn't do so well the first time around.
Speaker:So just.
Speaker:Was basically there 'cause I had to be essentially and,
Speaker:uh, wasn't really motivated.
Speaker:Um, other than just hanging out with my friends and playing a bit of footy at
Speaker:the time it wasn't really a, a thing to study or go to uni and I was pretty ante.
Speaker:University for whatever reason.
Speaker:I don't know why at the time, just fully answered it.
Speaker:So got through, I got a bit of paper, got this thing called an naar.
Speaker:I was not very good at all.
Speaker:Mum and dad said, right, what are you gonna do now?
Speaker:I said, I have to go get a job.
Speaker:So literally went to Centrelink back in the day, all the Cs back in the day.
Speaker:That's how old I am.
Speaker:So back in the old CS days and just had the job board do went right.
Speaker:Whatcha gonna do it?
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:Of all things.
Speaker:I found this job being a stone mason.
Speaker:They just had to know the difference between marble and granite.
Speaker:I had no idea what marble or granite was, but went Oh, went for the
Speaker:interview to know the difference.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I know the difference.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:And started my career as a, an apprentice stone mason, which fantastic.
Speaker:Not for me, mate.
Speaker:I can't change the life flow by, I'm not handy at all.
Speaker:So I think I've got about two years through that and just
Speaker:went, oh no, this is not for me.
Speaker:And, um, yeah.
Speaker:You know, and then, uh, I, uh, was riding a, a motorbike down a friend's
Speaker:farm, had an accident, broke my ankle.
Speaker:Thought, okay, I'm, I was in my mid twenties by then, thought, okay, I should,
Speaker:uh, start thinking about what's next.
Speaker:And yeah, I probably similar vein to you, mate, I, I love my sport.
Speaker:I thought, oh, I'm, I don't mind telling a story, so I'll
Speaker:become a, a sports journalist.
Speaker:I thought, all right, so what do you have to do to become a sports journalist?
Speaker:All right, you gotta do HSC again, you gotta go to uni.
Speaker:I was looking at that.
Speaker:So I went back to tafe, MHSC, um, realized English was not my thing.
Speaker:And then, uh, that's a massive commitment to, to go back at that age to your HSC.
Speaker:Yeah, not, not a popular decision with a lot of my friends 'cause they're out
Speaker:drinking, partying, having a great time.
Speaker:Like, no, I'm putting my head down.
Speaker:They're go, no, you're kidding us.
Speaker:Like, no, no, I'm dead.
Speaker:Be serious.
Speaker:I can do 12 months and, you know, not drink and not hang
Speaker:out with you blokes as much.
Speaker:And yeah.
Speaker:So no, it was a big deal and, and to be honest, that in spite a few
Speaker:of my friends who go back and do their HSE again, so I'm really, yeah.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Glad there's a little bit of a byproduct that that inspired them so.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely a big deal.
Speaker:Anyway, long story short, went to Uni of Canberra, decided I was
Speaker:gonna be a sports psychologist.
Speaker:That was really early days.
Speaker:Sports psychology wasn't really a thing.
Speaker:But I read a story about someone that was helping the Wallabies at
Speaker:the time and thought, yeah, I love sport, love talking to people.
Speaker:Thought that'd be for me.
Speaker:So down to uni of Canberra, a few years down there, back to Sydney.
Speaker:And yeah, here I am as a sports psychologist, which I'm really, uh,
Speaker:passionate about and love doing.
Speaker:How good, yeah.
Speaker:Did you, do you play sport much when you're young?
Speaker:Like you said you went to it, but like, what did you go to?
Speaker:Yeah, like I played a lot of different sports, so, you know, um, played a bit
Speaker:of soccer, a lot of cricket, bit of rugby league, um, uh, like touch footy,
Speaker:anything I get my hands on, I just love that whole playing with my mates.
Speaker:It's all just base level stuff.
Speaker:Nothing to any massive level.
Speaker:So just hanging out with the boys weekend sport essentially.
Speaker:Um, where I live is pretty popular.
Speaker:I play soccer and play sport, so that was the thing to do.
Speaker:So yeah, ride into it from pretty much when I was eight through till
Speaker:probably mid twenties, kept playing.
Speaker:So just weekend stuff, summer Creek, summer, winter, just loved.
Speaker:Getting out there.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You say just, but to me that's like the essence of sport is that the connections
Speaker:and, and spending time with mates.
Speaker:And like I, I was talking the other day, like watching my young fella,
Speaker:he is 18 playing, it's again, it's only park level, but Yep.
Speaker:Just saying to him like, mate, these gonna be the best years, so just enjoy it.
Speaker:'cause it's, it's a time that you can't get back.
Speaker:I don't know if you've heard re masters' quote, he said, um.
Speaker:He said there's no comparison to that feeling in a dressing room that
Speaker:that five minutes after a victory.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's a buzz even at that level.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, I've come back as an old boy.
Speaker:I've played a bit of old boys, uh, a FL now I'm playing, uh, league tag with
Speaker:over 35, so I'm back into it now, having a bit of run around, a similar feeling.
Speaker:It's always good to just hang around the boys and bit of that social
Speaker:connection, particularly at my age.
Speaker:So that's a big part of it.
Speaker:So I'm with you.
Speaker:It's more than just wins and losses, it's about that connection
Speaker:and the social side of it.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker:So, psychology degree.
Speaker:So you've.
Speaker:You've done the journalism degree, you completed?
Speaker:No, no, I didn't.
Speaker:I I, I went to Uni Canberra to do, um, a, a psychology degree and Uni Canberra
Speaker:has a lot of sports science subjects.
Speaker:I did a bit of sports science, but they also do a, a sports journalism
Speaker:subject or, or particular course.
Speaker:So I did a few subjects in my undergrad, but, um, realized pretty quickly
Speaker:journalism and me is not the thing.
Speaker:So yeah, stuck to, uh, the sports side stuff, but did a bit of sports
Speaker:science work while I was there as well.
Speaker:So that was a good mix of getting that.
Speaker:Physical, um, understanding of the body as well as the mental side of it as well.
Speaker:So it was a good connection in terms of sport and performance.
Speaker:Yeah, it's good.
Speaker:Um, I wanted to do that course sports journalism course in Canberra.
Speaker:I didn't get marks in the end.
Speaker:No, the irony, irony was I ended up at Fox Sports working there, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well I had a couple of mates who got it and the ATAR you
Speaker:needed for it was ridiculous.
Speaker:I'm like, Hey, anyway.
Speaker:Yeah, it was very popular, so I agree mate.
Speaker:Yeah, there's certainly more, one more than one way of skin
Speaker:cut in that regard, right?
Speaker:Like you certainly can get it done without the university
Speaker:degree and Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:So you go into psychology like, yep, that.
Speaker:Look, I discovered a lot of this stuff much later in life.
Speaker:It must have been a real eyeopener for a sort of mid twenties that's been,
Speaker:you know, on a bit of a different path.
Speaker:It must have just like blown your mind open in a lot of ways.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It did.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Like I, for me, I, I always saw psychology very differently.
Speaker:Like I, I, I appreciate the stigma that is around it and or was around
Speaker:at that time, but for me it was never about analyzing people or thinking
Speaker:that I knew more than anybody else.
Speaker:For me, it was always about that connection, wanting to
Speaker:understand and help people.
Speaker:And because of my background and history, nothing untoward or massive,
Speaker:just I understood the importance.
Speaker:Being able to listen to people is just something that, I don't know
Speaker:why, it just come naturally to me.
Speaker:Like I always just loved it.
Speaker:So I just thought, well that makes sense.
Speaker:You go down there, you, you study, you work out what makes people tick
Speaker:and you work out how to work with teams and get better outcomes for 'em.
Speaker:And you know, I always thought that I would just do that permanently
Speaker:and fulltime as a sports psych, but it turns out my skills and
Speaker:my background lend itself neatly to all aspects of psychology.
Speaker:So it's not just sport that I do.
Speaker:But yeah, that's definitely was the reason I started just to connect
Speaker:in help and be part of a team.
Speaker:Do you have a memory of back then, like something that, that you learned that
Speaker:was changing for your life as well?
Speaker:'cause I know all of the different modalities I've learned, there's
Speaker:always been something in there from that going, oh yeah, I really need
Speaker:to change how I live that way too.
Speaker:Yeah, look, to be honest, and it probably wasn't until after I finished studying and
Speaker:started getting into work that I sort of had some of those epiphanies at the time.
Speaker:I'll be honest, it was more about just, uh, I was away living with, on
Speaker:campus with a whole bunch of my mates.
Speaker:So, you know, and, and guys that I'm still friends with.
Speaker:So I, I won't lie, I wasn't the most studious person, but, uh.
Speaker:Did enough to get by and then thought, oh, when I got back and back to Sydney
Speaker:and did all my post grad, I thought I better take it a bit more seriously.
Speaker:Anyways, a little bit of backend story there, but yeah, but to be honest,
Speaker:I've, most of the stuff I've learned without being disrespectful to unis
Speaker:or teachers or academics in that regard, I learned most of my stuff.
Speaker:Hands on, face-to-face.
Speaker:I've had a, a real broad, um, uh, uh, experience with psychology through
Speaker:from, you know, um, working with at Slink as a psychologist there
Speaker:through to my own private practice.
Speaker:So, to be honest, I've learned more there and really got my hands dirty
Speaker:and learn more about myself and, um, how to get the best outta myself.
Speaker:And so that's probably, yeah, what happened later on in life.
Speaker:Yeah, I can relate to a two of those elements.
Speaker:Um, not taking uni as seriously as I probably could have and spending
Speaker:lots of time socially socializing.
Speaker:And, um, and also what you said about learning on the job.
Speaker:Mm. I think about a, um, uh, a guy I coached a few years ago and he
Speaker:was like, he was just natural at.
Speaker:Like, and I found him helping out in my group programs and he was coaching,
Speaker:and so I got him to do some sort of coaching work there, and he's like, I
Speaker:feel I need to go get some modalities.
Speaker:I'm like, mate, we, I've just been coaching you for two years.
Speaker:You've learned everything that I've learned from spending, you know,
Speaker:5, 6, 7 years learning it, it's gonna be so much more beneficial.
Speaker:The, the, um, the certification in a lot of ways is for other people who have
Speaker:got some doubts about it, I suppose.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Look, obviously if you want to be a psychologist, there's a
Speaker:formal path you've gotta take.
Speaker:But I, I'll be direct, I, I struggle to find anyone that's gone through a uni
Speaker:degree and their post-grad studies and come out with all the things they need
Speaker:and being able to work with people.
Speaker:There's, to me, I, I work a lot with younger psychologists, early
Speaker:career psychs, and I talk more about the, the art of being a
Speaker:psychologist rather than science of it.
Speaker:There's a lot more art, particularly wanna get good with people.
Speaker:So Yeah, you, you learn way more.
Speaker:Yeah, face to face with people than you do probably in the bookstore at uni.
Speaker:A hundred percent.
Speaker:I think that's true for any field is like you maybe do 10% learning,
Speaker:then the rest of it's on the job.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Um, you said something there.
Speaker:The art of it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I was gonna ask you about that.
Speaker:'cause what you were describing there is like you just had a
Speaker:knack for it, um, listening.
Speaker:So I imagine you're a good listener.
Speaker:I imagine you're a really good communicator, naturally.
Speaker:But I also imagine that you're really good at building trust quickly.
Speaker:Um, because that if you've got a knack for it, it tends to
Speaker:come with a territory, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You people, random people on the street opening up about their
Speaker:life story and that sort of thing.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:That happens.
Speaker:I, I can't describe how or why, just, it's just something
Speaker:that has always happened to me.
Speaker:And, um, yeah.
Speaker:So, uh, I look, to be honest, I'm, I'm blessed to have found something
Speaker:that I, I'm really passionate about and as you say, have a knack for, and
Speaker:I, I, I'm a very home spun, you know.
Speaker:Uh, what you see is what you get sort of person as a psychologist, as a,
Speaker:as a person generally speaking in and say, yeah, I really find those micro
Speaker:skills, the arts, and I really work hard with early career psychs to say,
Speaker:yeah, okay, you've got your degree and you've got all the things you
Speaker:need, but what you don't have is that.
Speaker:Face-to-face, eyeball to eyeball, working with people in all sorts
Speaker:of forms and distress and really high fing people through to, you
Speaker:know, people that are down and out.
Speaker:So you've gotta have an ability to be relatable, as you say, to build that
Speaker:trust, build that rapport quickly.
Speaker:'cause if you don't have that, people aren't gonna open up to you.
Speaker:They're not gonna feel safe and confident.
Speaker:That's what we wanna try and create as psychologists.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And they're not gonna get the results.
Speaker:I mean, you talk about, again, in your buyer, you talked about, um, helping
Speaker:them get success and, and happiness.
Speaker:If you're not, if you're not good at those things you just described, well then yeah.
Speaker:Like they might have a, a good opportunity to offload a whole lot of things in
Speaker:their head, but they're not necessarily gonna get the shift that they're after.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You, me, you mentioned what, doing some work there at Centerlink Yes.
Speaker:For a young bloke starting out, was that a bit of an eyeopener?
Speaker:Must have had some interesting experiences there?
Speaker:No, massive, massive eyeopener that, that to me just blew my mind.
Speaker:Like it to, to be honest, like I come from a, you know.
Speaker:Bland, boring mom and dad background, living there.
Speaker:I live in like, it, it just blew my mind.
Speaker:And then I, I felt really honored and grateful to be, to be in
Speaker:that position where I'm trying to make a difference to people.
Speaker:So we literally, working with people that come out of jail.
Speaker:So they're in jail one day, come out the next day, and they, they come to
Speaker:Centerlink to get payment and get support and you, they say, oh, you gotta go and
Speaker:see a psychologist do an assessment.
Speaker:I'm, oh, hey, great, thanks.
Speaker:Hey, how you going mate?
Speaker:Like, what's going on?
Speaker:And so you, you learn how to really keep it nice and light.
Speaker:Keep it all above board.
Speaker:I certainly had some clangers and had some moments there and was given
Speaker:a lot of instant feedback, which I've, uh, kept in mind this day.
Speaker:I said to someone, I know how you're feeling.
Speaker:He goes, oh, ring you think you, you, you know how I feel.
Speaker:You haven't been jealous.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:That's what they told me to say, but I won't, I won't say no how you feel.
Speaker:I can appreciate it or I understand it, but I won't ever say I know,
Speaker:because even if I do know, I won't make that mistake again.
Speaker:Even my first manager said, I walked rocked up with a tie and my first
Speaker:manager I was working at Redford at the time said, mate, do not wear a tie.
Speaker:I'm like, what are you talking about?
Speaker:He goes, because if someone gets cranked with him, they grab you out.
Speaker:They're gonna grab your tie.
Speaker:So no tie for you on this to this day.
Speaker:I open collar, never worn a tie ever again, that sort of thing.
Speaker:It was, it was a bit while back in the day, but, uh, I, I cut my teeth
Speaker:there and really got a lot from that.
Speaker:Just working with people that are.
Speaker:You know, as I said earlier, down and out and not in great positions, and to be
Speaker:able to just try and create a little bit of connection and rapport, even, it was
Speaker:just for a quick 30 minutes, 40 minutes.
Speaker:To me, that's how I cut my teeth, and always very focused on that.
Speaker:When I meet people for the first time, just being very present, very
Speaker:comforting, as quick as I can be.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Um, again, that's an example of, of having to learn on the run because Yeah, there's
Speaker:plenty of things that you get taught that don't necessarily work in the real world.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:I could just imagine that one.
Speaker:How, how, how the fuck would, you know?
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, I didn't learn that in supervision or that never happened in placement.
Speaker:I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:Not even wear a tie.
Speaker:No one at uni mentioned don't wear a tie.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Did, did you have any people come back?
Speaker:Like did, do you, do you have any sort of memory of it?
Speaker:Having an impact on someone and actually like they got enough out of it.
Speaker:They went, oh, I need to speak to you again.
Speaker:Yeah, unfortunately it certain like that wasn't quite how it was set up at the day.
Speaker:It was more assessment and referral, so we didn't really get much of an idea of that.
Speaker:But I did have people obviously walk out at the end of it saying how grateful they
Speaker:were and, you know, so to be honest, and unfortunately no, not in that role, but
Speaker:you, you get a bit of a sense that you've made hopefully a bit of a difference.
Speaker:And, you know, particularly in, in some of those lower socioeconomic areas that
Speaker:we worked in, like it wasn't, you know, it wasn't all sweetness and light.
Speaker:So I was really conscious about just trying to create that, you know, uh.
Speaker:Good first impression or that good comfort sort of approach.
Speaker:But um, yeah, no, unfortunately not anything substantial in that
Speaker:regard, but like to think I did.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well I think that, you know, if we just set aside the instant feedback
Speaker:that you talked about before, like when, when you get that sort of.
Speaker:Other feedback of just how appreciative they are.
Speaker:I imagine that would've just hooked you in for life, right?
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You do.
Speaker:You, it's like, you know, a elite athletes winning grand finals, that sort of thing.
Speaker:I appreciate it's not quite the same, but that, that's that sort of buzz that
Speaker:you do get, you get like elite athletes, you get all the downside to it as well.
Speaker:So I can absolutely appreciate from that end, yeah, there is that, that
Speaker:high and that good buzz that you get.
Speaker:And as psychologists, I, I'm super conscious about not everyone comes into
Speaker:psychology, um, for the same reason.
Speaker:So obviously as I'm working with.
Speaker:For early career psychs or even more senior psychs, I'm very
Speaker:conscious about trying to work out how or why they're, they're here.
Speaker:And to be honest, everyone's intentions are great, but you've gotta be conscious
Speaker:that sometimes those intentions or what you want to try and get out
Speaker:of it can really get in the way of what you do when you're in session.
Speaker:So get a buzz from it, but be mindful.
Speaker:You won't always get that sort of feeling from working with everybody
Speaker:'cause it's not quite how it works.
Speaker:In reality.
Speaker:No, that's right.
Speaker:Yeah, that's actually a great point.
Speaker:Don't chase the buzz.
Speaker:Like it meant for them, not for you.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, it's a really interesting point you said there about like, you know, um,
Speaker:professional sporting people that, that buzz it actually from, from my experience
Speaker:in sport and, um, as a supporter and, and hearing people describe it.
Speaker:Yeah, it is very similar.
Speaker:I think the, the real positive about.
Speaker:What we do, although if coming from a different.
Speaker:Uh, background and lens is that we can continue to have
Speaker:that in our life going forward.
Speaker:And I think that's probably a big part of what happens to athletes
Speaker:when they don't find that.
Speaker:So is do you work with any athletes post-care?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, we do.
Speaker:I'm, I'm part of a, um, a, a sporting network mental health referral network.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So we absolutely do get a lot of people coming in.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Post-career or even as they're getting towards the end of their career.
Speaker:And a lot of the, um, organizations N-R-L-A-F-L are doing a lot more in
Speaker:terms of education and wellbeing.
Speaker:So we're certainly trying to be more proactive in that space.
Speaker:But unfortunately there's still the tail end of the older generation that didn't
Speaker:quite have that set up and support.
Speaker:So yeah, that transition from elite level to to general life is definitely
Speaker:something that we do a lot of work around.
Speaker:Ian and a lot of the organizations that said are way more supportive
Speaker:of that, which is great.
Speaker:Yeah, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this.
Speaker:'cause to me, like when you, what you, what you've been describing about the
Speaker:work you do is like purpose, right?
Speaker:Like it's so fulfilling, I imagine, whether it's sport
Speaker:people or, or business owners.
Speaker:Or from whatever work of life, if you're helping them find more
Speaker:success and happiness, then there'd be an element of you taking 'em that
Speaker:down that path around their story.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So can you have maybe a bit of a description about that, that
Speaker:journey of, of how you would take someone on that path to help them
Speaker:find more of that buzz in their.
Speaker:Yeah, well look, once they've had the courage to show up, my, my first job
Speaker:is just to slow it down and really give 'em that understanding that I'm,
Speaker:I'm here and I'm listening and I care.
Speaker:And a lot of particularly male athletes that I deal with try
Speaker:to be big and tough and strong.
Speaker:And particularly in elite level sport, you've gotta be even
Speaker:bigger, tough, and stronger.
Speaker:So for them to come in, sit in an office and acknowledge they've
Speaker:got some stuff going on, my first job is to go, okay, it's okay.
Speaker:And we are here and it's all right.
Speaker:And the feelings you're having are natural and normal.
Speaker:So I spend probably the.
Speaker:The majority of my early time, just giving them that little bit
Speaker:of reassurance of what they're feeling is natural and normal.
Speaker:And to go from elite level to to not is a, is a big deal.
Speaker:And as you've identified earlier, Ian, it's probably easier for
Speaker:people like us 'cause we can get working for as long as we want.
Speaker:Whereas an elite level athlete, there's a ticking clock.
Speaker:So it is a massive transition and it is a big deal and can have a
Speaker:significant bearing on people's wellbeing and their welfare.
Speaker:So yeah, we, we do that and then what we do is after we sort of acknowledged.
Speaker:You know, the, the how, the what, the why, those sort of things.
Speaker:Then we start talking about what opportunities might be in front of them
Speaker:and how they can sort of use some of their initial skills or their current
Speaker:skills to get them into, you know, working life and that sort of thing.
Speaker:But it's also about preparing them for the realities that you know you're
Speaker:gonna go from, if, particularly if you're a high and elite level athlete,
Speaker:A-F-L-R-L, that sort of stuff.
Speaker:You're getting paid big dollars to potentially not.
Speaker:We're gonna sort of talk them through the realities of that as well.
Speaker:So I'm a bit of a. Pragmatists in that sense.
Speaker:We try, once we get 'em sort of comfortable, we sort of talk about some of
Speaker:the realities, but then also try and come at it from a strengths-based approach.
Speaker:Say, okay, well you are very well versed at showing up.
Speaker:You're very well versed at performing under pressure.
Speaker:You're very well versed at work as a team.
Speaker:You're very good at following instructions.
Speaker:You're very good at those sort of things.
Speaker:So that lends itself neatly to a lot of careers.
Speaker:So just gotta get used to the realities, but your skillset will
Speaker:naturally lend itself to some careers.
Speaker:So we don't necessarily do the.
Speaker:Career and education piece.
Speaker:A lot of other people do that.
Speaker:It's more just the mental health, wellbeing, emotional side of things that
Speaker:we sort of focus on as psychologists.
Speaker:In that sense, it's almost self-belief, what you're describing there.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And what I'm doing even more now is 'cause it's not just athletes at the end
Speaker:of their time, it's, I'm dealing with a lot of junior, younger athletes and I'm
Speaker:already trying to help them preempt it to say, listen, I, and I like getting a
Speaker:lot of trouble from parents because I'm saying, look, the chance of your child
Speaker:becoming a lead, I know they're good now is a 10-year-old or 11-year-old,
Speaker:or 12-year-old, but the chance of them being a lead at 18, 19, let alone 25
Speaker:or whatever it is, it's pretty remote.
Speaker:So I'm saying, so we've gotta get prepared for worst case.
Speaker:We've gotta get prepared for what's life.
Speaker:Like potentially without sport.
Speaker:And that's a big challenge.
Speaker:'cause particularly in certain sports where you live and breathe
Speaker:it, it's quite challenging.
Speaker:So, so a lot of the, um, organizations once they get athletes into their
Speaker:professional setup to do that.
Speaker:But I'm trying to do that at even younger age, and particularly parents
Speaker:to help 'em understand that there's a life skills they need, like school
Speaker:or, you know, um, just being a decent person and, you know, having the courage
Speaker:to be able to see life beyond just the sport if you're on the results team.
Speaker:So really conscious about trying to front end that rather than
Speaker:just support it at the back end.
Speaker:Oh, I love it.
Speaker:And that's a lot of the work that I've been doing almost
Speaker:inadvertently working out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's the parents that are the big part of that puzzle.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because they get the opportunity to really empower them.
Speaker:Um, yep.
Speaker:I, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on, on the best
Speaker:approach for sporting parents.
Speaker:Um, I've had a few different guests on, over the last little while talk about
Speaker:how they've done things a bit different.
Speaker:Um, yeah.
Speaker:Have you actually, have you seen the video from Wayne Goldsmith when he talks about.
Speaker:He's talking to a bunch of rugby union kids, I think in New Zealand and Okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and he says to them, oh, you know, hand up if your child's elite.
Speaker:And they were like, 10, 11, 12, that age you're talking about?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And, and he said, well, I'm sorry to tell you, your child is not gonna make it.
Speaker:He said, all the data said, all the data says yeah, that there are no elite kids.
Speaker:10, 11, 12. And the ones who make it.
Speaker:Are not elite.
Speaker:They're the ones who are all those things you talked about.
Speaker:They, they're good people, they've got good character, they, they're
Speaker:resilience, they're the things that you really want to teach them.
Speaker:Um, correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, so how do you, do you have this conversation sort of as a supplement
Speaker:to the sessions with the, the athlete?
Speaker:Or are you actually speaking directly to the parents in a clinical fashion?
Speaker:Yeah, as I said, I'm, I'm a heart on my sleeve.
Speaker:Shoot from the hip sort of person.
Speaker:So I've got myself in plenty of trouble from, uh, uh, saying things before
Speaker:I've earned the right to say things.
Speaker:And so I've got myself in plenty of trouble with different parents and
Speaker:different, uh, areas in my life for that.
Speaker:But, um, I'm, I'm much more conscious about it now by, if they're
Speaker:coming in for a performance issue.
Speaker:We absolutely are talking about the performance issue and.
Speaker:Part of what I'm trying to flavor is an understanding that, yeah,
Speaker:okay, it's tough now and it's gonna continue to keep getting tougher.
Speaker:So what we learn now will put us in good stead for, you know,
Speaker:if it gets under twelves, under fourteens, whatever it is, right?
Speaker:So I always try and frame it that way, but I do flavor in, hey there's
Speaker:other sides to this in terms of this may not work out for you.
Speaker:Um, you know, if we're getting any injuries and we've
Speaker:gotta be prepared for that.
Speaker:And just talking to parents saying, Hey look, it's great that you care and
Speaker:it's awesome that you're passionate, but we do have to be very focused on
Speaker:the realities here, which might include not quite getting where you want to go.
Speaker:So I have to do it gently.
Speaker:Even though they're coming in to see me, and apparently I'm the guru
Speaker:and the expert, I've still gotta do it very gently and very carefully
Speaker:because parents are paying the bills.
Speaker:So I'm conscious of that too.
Speaker:So I don't wanna fully offend them, but I do try flavor it in there, mate.
Speaker:And the, and the interesting that I'm talking to a lot of parents about now is,
Speaker:is female pathways and, and how much that has shown that there's a lot of elite
Speaker:female athletes now that didn't start playing a FL or basketball or soccer or
Speaker:rugby league or any, those sort of things.
Speaker:They were playing other sports.
Speaker:So I try to highlight their parents, go, Hey, you know what your child needs.
Speaker:Good at soccer, but also he is pretty tall, so he might be able to become
Speaker:a, a bowler of some description or a basketball player, or there's
Speaker:other sports we could try as well.
Speaker:Pigeonhole 'em at eight, nine or 10 going, oh, they're gonna be this or that.
Speaker:So try and use the, the female pathway as an option, as a,
Speaker:as a conversation starter.
Speaker:'cause it's, it's strictly true.
Speaker:And a lot of the sports science research says that specialization at
Speaker:an early age actually is detrimental.
Speaker:The less specialized you are, the more you can then later on when you're 15, 16, 17,
Speaker:oh, I've played a little bit of cricket, a little bit of baseball, a little bit
Speaker:of soccer, a little bit of rugby league.
Speaker:And lo and behold, I'm a good a FL player 'cause I can track flights of balls and
Speaker:got good hand coordination and who knew?
Speaker:I'm gonna try that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There, there's lots of data now about the multi-sport approach.
Speaker:I, a couple of people come to mind the, the young Aussie, I think he
Speaker:was the number one draft picked in the Major league baseball.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:He had a really big cricket background and that happened.
Speaker:Correct?
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:He did.
Speaker:In so many in elements.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Exactly right.
Speaker:All of them.
Speaker:And then I think about some of those, uh, rugby league and union players Yep.
Speaker:Who've had a basketball background and of course, what are they known for?
Speaker:Having these amazing offloading skills and Exactly right skills.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:When you think about someone like Alex Carey playing a l and then becomes,
Speaker:you know, Australian wig keeper, right.
Speaker:So, you know, and you think about the ash parties of the world that can play
Speaker:golf and tennis and, you know, a FL you think, oh, far outright it's possible.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It makes you sick though, as a sport.
Speaker:It does.
Speaker:It sickens me because I tried my whole life to like, that, couldn't get there.
Speaker:Oh, fantastic.
Speaker:Um, okay, so, so let's look at, um, you, you, uh, having someone, oh, actually,
Speaker:I, I was gonna ask you this before.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You, you talked about working with different athletes.
Speaker:Uh, is there anyone that you've worked with at a, like a high
Speaker:profile that you've, you've seen a result and, and it's even surprised
Speaker:you just how well they've gone?
Speaker:Um, yeah, look, there's a, there's a couple of us.
Speaker:I can't name anyone, but yeah, there, there's a couple.
Speaker:Um, to be honest, I, I, um, tend to work with, um, people just more
Speaker:on a, on an ad hoc, ad hoc basis.
Speaker:So there's a couple of, um, uh, players that spring to mind that yeah, were
Speaker:quite, um, anxious and overwhelmed when they first started, and yeah, that
Speaker:they certainly come good in the end.
Speaker:There's also been a few players that I've, we've helped transition out just
Speaker:saying this, this is not for them and for their own safety and their own security.
Speaker:Being able to give them some options and look at other things as well.
Speaker:And so it's not just the on field stuff as well.
Speaker:Like I said, we wanna try and take a whole person approach.
Speaker:So yeah, like there has been some, but there's also been some that.
Speaker:Just in spite of our best devs haven't quite hit the spot either.
Speaker:And there's a lot of stuff that goes on the background
Speaker:that we're not quite aware of.
Speaker:And I'm a like, you're a massive sports fan and you, and
Speaker:you only hear one side of it.
Speaker:And when you actually get on the other side and you can see what they've been
Speaker:through, what they're going through, you can appreciate why they didn't
Speaker:quite get where they wanted to go.
Speaker:Um, and some of those problems are well entrenched and very
Speaker:difficult to, um, to resolve.
Speaker:So yeah, seen a few, but also unfortunate, seen a few that haven't
Speaker:quite gotten where they want to go either.
Speaker:Yeah, you would've met Paul Hep still, I'm sure.
Speaker:The Yep.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Hep, yep.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And he talks, he talks about how, like, you know, he goes, you
Speaker:gotta look at the sport of Rugby league and the brutality of it.
Speaker:Like it's gonna attract a certain type of person.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:And yet we expecting them to be these perfect role models.
Speaker:And that's just not, yeah.
Speaker:That's just not reality.
Speaker:Because so many of them have got stuff in their, yeah.
Speaker:In their personal lives.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:They can't even imagine.
Speaker:Most of us.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and, and on on Paul, like obviously he's been a, um, a starward
Speaker:of education and wellbeing and, and thanks to his dedication, hard work
Speaker:over a long course of time, the NR l's benefiting from his hard work.
Speaker:So yeah, that's what I'm talking about in terms of whole of person and
Speaker:understand there's more goes on, you know, than just what we see on the field.
Speaker:So, yeah, no, definitely people like Paul and, and other organizations have done
Speaker:a great job now understanding the, the wellbeing and the psychological elements
Speaker:that go into high performance athletes.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Could we just come back to your story a bit now?
Speaker:I'd love to hear for the listeners' benefit how you've managed to balance
Speaker:what I'm sure is quite a busy, um, business that you've got running.
Speaker:'cause you've got a few different arms to it.
Speaker:Like how have you done like, 'cause.
Speaker:For me personally, sometimes I'm spent a lot of time and
Speaker:energy helping everyone else.
Speaker:And sometimes you can get a bit overwhelmed by your own stuff.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So how have you managed to, to balance that over the years?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:One of my positives and one of my negatives, I'm a creature of habit.
Speaker:So if I find something that works, I'll just stick to it.
Speaker:Like regardless of what it is, some not so good things.
Speaker:But, uh, yeah, mostly good things and, and so I'm very.
Speaker:Very, um, habit focused.
Speaker:So more recently I've been getting more into my, my health and fitness.
Speaker:So I like to try and get a workout in, or I'm not trying to become
Speaker:this universe, but just try and get something in before I come to work.
Speaker:So that really helps me.
Speaker:But I've also learned in my life that if I'm working with clients and I'm giving
Speaker:them everything they need in that moment, that just helps me sleep better at night.
Speaker:So I'm really conscious about, I, I try.
Speaker:As much as I'm being pretty, you know, jovial and pro, you know, sort of here,
Speaker:I'm, I'm not normally like this when I'm in session, but I also make sure that
Speaker:if someone needs to hear something, I try and work really hard to make sure
Speaker:it's said so that when they leave I go, okay, Joel, you said that you need to
Speaker:say there's nothing left on the table.
Speaker:I didn't say, oh, I'll speak to you about that next week.
Speaker:I'm like, okay, well you need to hear, or this would be good for you even.
Speaker:It's difficult and that then just helps me create space where I get home.
Speaker:To be with my family and got, well, got older kids now, but started
Speaker:a business with younger kids.
Speaker:So I really worked hard to be, you know, very present, which hasn't always
Speaker:been easy, but something I've really tried to work very hard on is applying
Speaker:some of the things I've talked about in terms of, okay, well you deal with
Speaker:the emotions that happen at the time.
Speaker:You honor those, you feel those I appreciate.
Speaker:Not everyone's into that sort of thing, but I really want to do that.
Speaker:I, I give everything I've got to it, and then when I get home,
Speaker:I make sure I'm very present.
Speaker:I haven't always been super good at it, but work hard to try and be present.
Speaker:Just so I can then, you know, spend time recovering and doing my thing so the
Speaker:next day I can come in and do it again.
Speaker:So try to be as structured as I can, but also make sure I'm doing everything
Speaker:I need to do in that moment so that I don't have anything sort of hanging
Speaker:over my head about what I could have said or should have said or didn't
Speaker:say, because I'm conscious that that's how I just sort of keep myself
Speaker:on track and safe at the same time.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:So good.
Speaker:And I love how you just own it, that like you don't always get it perfect
Speaker:because it's, that's the reality.
Speaker:It's it's because we do something as a job doesn't mean that we're experts.
Speaker:Correct, yeah.
Speaker:Doing it to for ourselves.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, what about some specific 'cause, 'cause that's one thing to say, or
Speaker:we're trying to be more present, but if you've got some specific tools
Speaker:or tips you can give the listeners to, to help with 'em if, if they've
Speaker:got a particularly busy or Yeah.
Speaker:Consuming job.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Look, I, I think self-care and, and psychological safety.
Speaker:I know it's a bit of a buzzword and appreciate, there's a lot of mixed
Speaker:information around about that, but for me, what that means is in that
Speaker:space you make sure that you're being very present to your own feelings.
Speaker:So if you're feeling good, you're feeling bad, you make sure that you are
Speaker:on top of that and you understand it.
Speaker:To me, it's not about trying to control it or manage it or, or channel it.
Speaker:In a way it's about, okay, I'm feeling crap or I'm feeling
Speaker:this, I'm feeling that.
Speaker:And you know, I, I, I, my wife asked me the other day, I made
Speaker:a phone call to something.
Speaker:She goes, were you a bit nervous?
Speaker:And I went, yeah, I was.
Speaker:And she goes, oh, 'cause you said made a lot, you said this and that.
Speaker:I like, yeah, I was, I, I don't know why.
Speaker:I just felt nervous about making that phone call.
Speaker:Like, okay, I wasn't embarrassed.
Speaker:Yeah, she got me.
Speaker:It was, that was and alright, no problems.
Speaker:I think if you can just honor it and be comfortable being
Speaker:uncomfortable, that just allows you space to then be able to move on.
Speaker:So I appreciate everyone's got their own sort of approach to it, but for me it's
Speaker:more just, let's be honest about it.
Speaker:Let's, you know.
Speaker:Own it.
Speaker:If you're feeling something you don't carry like a
Speaker:Bullhead, you just take space.
Speaker:Take time, feel it.
Speaker:I try and analyze it pretty quickly.
Speaker:All right, Joel, you said this or you said that, or This has happened.
Speaker:That's happened.
Speaker:All right, mate.
Speaker:Stop.
Speaker:Go easy.
Speaker:You've got this to do that, to do.
Speaker:Think about the next 50 minute session.
Speaker:Let's get that done.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:You got 10 minutes to go and talk to someone.
Speaker:Go and talk to 'em, come back.
Speaker:It's pretty robotic.
Speaker:I say the same thing.
Speaker:I do the same thing.
Speaker:My room sit up very particularly, I just structure the crap out of it
Speaker:when I'm here and then when I'm not, I make sure it takes some time out,
Speaker:hang out with my friends, my family, try to, you know, run around, do a bit
Speaker:of footy, a bit of this, bit of that, mate, just try and just, just be here.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Love it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So you kind of mentioned before about how, you know, like, you
Speaker:know, it's not for everyone and, and you're talking about emotions.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and allow yourself to feel and that sort of thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:From my experience, men in particular, uh, are the worst at this and mm-hmm.
Speaker:Like you talked, use that word before.
Speaker:Stigma.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Do you, if they come in, do you.
Speaker:Try and steer them down that path gently, or if they're really resistant
Speaker:to it, do you just sort of steer it in another direction and give them
Speaker:something structured as you described?
Speaker:How would you approach that?
Speaker:Um, yeah, for generally a lot of men that, that do resist.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Allowing themselves to feel their full range of emotions.
Speaker:I'm, I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but I, but I do like to, to structure it
Speaker:when I'm working with men, particularly.
Speaker:So I'm very deliberate around, you know, how I introduce myself, how I walk people
Speaker:down the hall, bring 'em into the office.
Speaker:Um, all my, all my staff.
Speaker:Go, mate, are you a robot?
Speaker:You just say the same thing.
Speaker:I hear you say, do you want some water?
Speaker:How's your day?
Speaker:I. Got, like I said, 'cause I, it just works.
Speaker:I don't know why.
Speaker:It just works.
Speaker:So get people in the room, particularly men and I really want to, I just give
Speaker:them a little bit of my background.
Speaker:So I'll say, Hey, I'm Joel and this how I like to work.
Speaker:And I'm just very comfortable to say, Hey, it's not about me.
Speaker:I'm not gonna tell you what to do, how to do it.
Speaker:I really want to form that collaboration.
Speaker:Hey, we're here to collaborate.
Speaker:You can tell me anything.
Speaker:I've got broad shoulders.
Speaker:You can say good, bad, indifferent, like it don't like it.
Speaker:Your haircut, your beard, whatever.
Speaker:No problems.
Speaker:You just tell me what you think and feel, and I'm here for you.
Speaker:So I really make sure that I'm connecting in with them to say,
Speaker:Hey, this is your space, your time.
Speaker:'cause most blokes we're supposed to be big and tough and strong.
Speaker:We do not wanna admit, acknowledge anything we can't fix.
Speaker:We wanna burn it, bear it, destroy it.
Speaker:So I don't wanna feed into that.
Speaker:I do not want people to feel weak or make 'em feel worse.
Speaker:So I'm really conscious about just trying to set that up and say, Hey, I'm happy
Speaker:for you to start wherever you like.
Speaker:We can start beginning, middle, end.
Speaker:Is there somewhere you wanna start?
Speaker:Then they'll just start talking and like you are doing today with me and just,
Speaker:Hey, you talked about, or you mentioned all the skills you are, you are doing
Speaker:in this podcast, and I'm sure when you're doing your coaching work, right?
Speaker:Like it's very similar, just trying to be gentle.
Speaker:And I always come at it from a strength-based approach and
Speaker:say, okay, so what has worked?
Speaker:Like, oh, this used to work or that used to work, so okay.
Speaker:It sounds like you've been able to do it and you have done it.
Speaker:Clearly something's going wrong.
Speaker:Like, okay, your wife said you should come here, or your boss said you
Speaker:could come here or your whatever.
Speaker:It's okay.
Speaker:No problems.
Speaker:What are they seeing?
Speaker:Oh, they're probably seeing this.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Do you understand why?
Speaker:Oh, no, not really.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So I don't try and put 'em on a couch.
Speaker:Sigma Freud.
Speaker:All right, tell me about your parents.
Speaker:And so we won't, we might go there, but certainly don't start there.
Speaker:And yeah, try to space it out, but also do make 'em say, all right, so what I want
Speaker:you doing is just one thing I might say.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:So between now and next week, I just want you to focus on this one thing.
Speaker:We've talked about this.
Speaker:I really would like you to do this one thing.
Speaker:When you come back, let know how you go.
Speaker:If it was good, great.
Speaker:If it's not great, if you've modified it, said, Joel, jam up your jumper.
Speaker:I'm gonna do this and this.
Speaker:As long as it's legal, I don't care.
Speaker:Uh, and so try and collaborate that way.
Speaker:A lot of psychs talk about homework or thought diaries or mood monitoring.
Speaker:I'm like, I don't met many guys or any guys that go, I can't wait
Speaker:to do homework and get this diary.
Speaker:I mean, we, we do get to that, but I think initially trying to work with them
Speaker:and be where they are and start where they're at, I think for men particularly
Speaker:is a, is the safest and best way to start.
Speaker:Mate, that's just been my literally experience.
Speaker:Yeah, I love and feedback.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Great description.
Speaker:'cause I think sometimes PE men particularly, again, are resistant
Speaker:because they're worried about like, diving into this deep dive.
Speaker:But it's, it's not that at all what you just described.
Speaker:It's like you've, you've helped 'em answer the question based on their own.
Speaker:Experience and Yeah, it is some, it is amazing.
Speaker:That's what you described there, how often bosses told
Speaker:them or their wife's told them.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Um, and so they're already a little bit resistant because they're kind of
Speaker:there under someone else's pretense.
Speaker:Correct?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:I was like the elephant in the room's.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:So who told you to come here?
Speaker:Oh, my wife.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:They all do make a jokes.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Not being to rocketry, to wise, you know what I mean?
Speaker:Like Yeah.
Speaker:That, that's how it starts, right?
Speaker:Someone's gotta tell 'em.
Speaker:Oh, I think sometimes you need permission from people.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:You do, you need someone to go?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's actually, it's okay.
Speaker:And, and, um, um, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well that's good.
Speaker:'cause I'm sure they have a great experience with you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Then allows them a space to, to maybe open up if they're ready.
Speaker:But ultimately a lot of it's just, yeah, what you said, finding the bright
Speaker:spots, find what's already working and help 'em steer back to that.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yeah, I, I'm big on strengths based.
Speaker:I, I really am, I do value that and always start with a, what's right
Speaker:with your conversation rather than a, what's wrong with your conversation.
Speaker:'cause if we start there, then we can get to the what's wrong.
Speaker:It's a bit safer and that whole vulnerability.
Speaker:And I appreciate, you know, again, talk about psychological safety
Speaker:and people talk about it, but to, to model it is what I'm about.
Speaker:So, all right.
Speaker:Sweet.
Speaker:I. I don't profess to be the guru.
Speaker:I say that to him, say, it's not, I don't have a magic wand.
Speaker:I'm not the guru.
Speaker:I'm someone in a chair with experience, but you just tell me where you're
Speaker:at and we'll have the conversation.
Speaker:So it mostly works.
Speaker:I, I won't lie and say it always works 'cause it doesn't, but,
Speaker:um, I think mostly it does.
Speaker:And if it hasn't worked, it's probably 'cause of other reasons.
Speaker:But I, I definitely believe that's the safest and best way, particularly
Speaker:with us blokes, is to just be honest.
Speaker:But yeah, be reassuring.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Love it.
Speaker:Spot on.
Speaker:Uh, you've been big on structure.
Speaker:One of the big eye openers for me is learning much later in life
Speaker:that my, my natural inclination as a conversationalist, uh, is great
Speaker:in so many ways, but one of the things where I can get into real
Speaker:trouble is if there's no structure.
Speaker:So yeah, since I learned that, I've spent the last probably 14 years trying to
Speaker:build as much structure into my life as well, and I certainly not perfect at it.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And you also mentioned how you try and take what you have learned through
Speaker:work and making it very structured and applying to your, your home life.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Or, yeah, I'm sure for sport, same sort of thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'd love your thoughts on this because, you know, people I've spoken to have said,
Speaker:oh, but I don't wanna take work home.
Speaker:And it's like, yeah, but you're not taking the content of work
Speaker:home, but you're taking the process or the, or the structure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Is that something that you'd.
Speaker:That you would, would be strong on or like, yeah.
Speaker:Do you help other people find structure?
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:Yeah, so, so what I do a lot with, and obviously not so much these days
Speaker:for a lot of people work from home, but back in the day when people were
Speaker:commuting to and from work, I say use that commute time to download, debrief,
Speaker:take your notes all, I've gotta do this tomorrow, I gotta do that tomorrow.
Speaker:Really just have that structure around in the car, on the train.
Speaker:Just really use that to.
Speaker:Think about what you've gotta do and think about what's happening.
Speaker:I'm angry 'cause my boss said this, or I'm angry 'cause this client or you know,
Speaker:and really just identify what's going on and then pick a spot, say sort of five
Speaker:minutes before you get home, or pick a lamp post or something, say, right, sweet.
Speaker:Not gonna go into home mode.
Speaker:So we talk about trying to work mode into home mode.
Speaker:'cause if you're, if you're not in a home mode, if you're not ready to be at
Speaker:home, then delay it by a few minutes.
Speaker:But when you get home, you have a responsibility.
Speaker:Like appreciate we've got responsibilities all day and it's another responsibility.
Speaker:But just talk about modes.
Speaker:Making sure we're in home mode.
Speaker:So just try and put that little bit of structure around.
Speaker:I'm not saying you have to be perfect at it or you can never have a bad
Speaker:moment, but just be really conscious about when we're at home, be at home.
Speaker:So then I, you know, even just the way you walk in the door, like I was very
Speaker:deliber around, Hey, how you going?
Speaker:What's going on?
Speaker:And still do it even though it's just my wife and I at home most of the time.
Speaker:The dog, Hey, what's going on?
Speaker:You know, that sort of approach just to, to make it know that you're home.
Speaker:I, I used to get in trouble a lot 'cause I was a good time.
Speaker:Dad.
Speaker:Hey, good to see you.
Speaker:What's going on?
Speaker:You know, but, but I just think just having that home mode just
Speaker:gets us in the right head space.
Speaker:And then you can just, you know, kids baths and dinner and mess
Speaker:and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker:It just gives us a little bit more space to be able to take a step back and breathe
Speaker:and the, all right, this is chaotic and I want to be sort of present to the
Speaker:chaos, but I'm not trying to fix it or control it or manhandle it just, okay.
Speaker:It's chaotic.
Speaker:Yes it is.
Speaker:'cause you've got a 2-year-old, a 3-year-old.
Speaker:You've got four of 'em.
Speaker:You've got three of 'em.
Speaker:It's supposed to be hectic 'cause it is hectic.
Speaker:Just slow down.
Speaker:It Exactly.
Speaker:I remember that conversation with my younger brother when he was like
Speaker:saying, I'm doing it pretty tough.
Speaker:I'm like, you've got a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old.
Speaker:Of course you're right.
Speaker:It's like, it's it's hard work mate.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Wasn't supposed to be this hard.
Speaker:They don't do you that.
Speaker:Right, exactly.
Speaker:Because if you did, you wouldn't do it.
Speaker:I'm not doing that.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And that's the thing.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Except it is hard.
Speaker:'cause it is hard.
Speaker:It's not 'cause we're bad.
Speaker:It's not 'cause we're useless.
Speaker:It's not 'cause wife's not doing or partner's not doing it.
Speaker:It's 'cause it's hard.
Speaker:Uh, a hundred percent.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Have, have you seen Dr. Adam Fraser's work when he talks about the third space?
Speaker:It's much like you described there Yes.
Speaker:About that home mood?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So good.
Speaker:And I loved, he told that story of the guy who rebuilt the front of
Speaker:his house so he could go to his, his room first so he could sort of
Speaker:switch off and get himself at home.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Do whatever you have to do.
Speaker:Like I said, I, I know you don't, I'm not trying to structure the heck out of
Speaker:it, but really am very conscious that having that presentness, if we can use
Speaker:that as a word, really does give us that flexibility when we're under pressure.
Speaker:And same as we talk to athletes, right?
Speaker:Like you're starting to think about, you know, I'm trying to kick a goal
Speaker:from the solo, the winner game.
Speaker:I'm worried about where I'm gonna get a contract, or here's gonna like me.
Speaker:How do you go kicking a goal, right?
Speaker:You gotta be present to the, where's the wind?
Speaker:Which way is it going?
Speaker:Like, just be at the kick once you've kicked it.
Speaker:Pray.
Speaker:Hopefully this goes where it's supposed to go.
Speaker:'cause I've done anything I can do.
Speaker:That's it.
Speaker:So, um, yeah.
Speaker:Similar sort of thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I think what you described there is that, is that for people listening to know
Speaker:that, that that person about to kick take that shot at goal still has self-doubt.
Speaker:Correct?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's, it's their ability to come back to the right steps.
Speaker:It's gonna work for them that allows 'em to still be successful.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Is that right?
Speaker:Process structure, what can you come back to?
Speaker:And, and, and some people don't learn that or they learn that the hard way
Speaker:or some people magically just have that within them to be able to do it.
Speaker:But there is, you know, uh, definitely a process people need to
Speaker:follow and yeah, I, I would agree.
Speaker:And yeah, just having a bit of that structure to come back to under pressure
Speaker:just gives that a little bit of safety and a little bit of space to hopefully execute
Speaker:a skill under immense pressure sometimes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Whether that's on the football field or, um, at home with, um, young children.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Pressure.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:It's absolutely is.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Um, now you said that you, you know, you took more from your experience,
Speaker:so you might not be able to answer this, um, as someone who's just studied
Speaker:it, but, but is there a psychology around structure about why it works?
Speaker:Um, look to, to be honest, I'm not really a, an academic as such, and
Speaker:there, there, there absolutely is, you know, around that sort of thing.
Speaker:And a lot of the, um, current research talks about being
Speaker:mindful and being present.
Speaker:So there, there's a lot of evidence and support around like act and.
Speaker:Um, mindfulness based therapies around that sort of things are just
Speaker:being very alert and very aware.
Speaker:But, um, in terms of the structure, that's probably more just my home funn
Speaker:way of saying, Hey, just, just have that little bit of process in place.
Speaker:There's probably a PhD in it for me, if I ever wanted to do it.
Speaker:I'm sure someone has done it.
Speaker:So one of your listeners could probably message you or send me a message and go,
Speaker:Joel, there's this research and get great.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:I, this is all just my experience and what I know works as opposed to.
Speaker:Evidence based as such.
Speaker:Um, yeah, so it's a good question.
Speaker:Probably should have just covered myself a little bit more and said,
Speaker:oh, well, you know, this research and that research, I couldn't
Speaker:think of it off the top of my head.
Speaker:I'm sure there is, mate.
Speaker:I'm sure someone could help me out.
Speaker:Well, to me this is the difference in personalities.
Speaker:Like you are clearly, clearly an extrovert, so we don't go into
Speaker:detail and, and nor do we need to because it's not our space.
Speaker:Whereas the more introverted psychologist is gonna be able to recall so and
Speaker:so's study in 1992 or whatever.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Just different methods.
Speaker:And it's the same for, you know, what you were talking about before.
Speaker:I was just curious if you knew it.
Speaker:'cause uh, for me it's, it's, yeah, it's what I know, again,
Speaker:from that personal experience for myself and for helping others.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's just so beneficial.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We'll let the listeners, if they really feel called to look that up
Speaker:themselves, but yeah, please do plenty.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Send me an email.
Speaker:Yeah, we'll come back and rerecord it.
Speaker:Let's do that again.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:This is what happened.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:I find that there are times where, um, even though I, I'm
Speaker:conscious of it, I'm being present.
Speaker:I still take on other people's stuff and I can walk out from, of
Speaker:course, from a day of working with people and just feel really heavy.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Of course.
Speaker:There'd be other people who do similar work and who Yeah.
Speaker:Who guide or coach or, yeah.
Speaker:Manage or lead or whatever.
Speaker:Like what advice have you got for them to helping them detach.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Look, to, to be honest, again, I, I, I dunno, detachment is, is, is in
Speaker:our best interest, particularly for people like you and I that actually
Speaker:care and give a rip about people.
Speaker:I think detaching can be quite dangerous, but we can't attach to everything.
Speaker:So it's more about how we identify when we're attached or how we're
Speaker:hooked up and what we need to do, step back and create space.
Speaker:So, as much as I'm being jovial, as I said, I, I'm super conscious that
Speaker:yeah, you, you can, and you do get.
Speaker:Hooked on people's stories.
Speaker:And that's one of the devastating downsides of being a helper and being
Speaker:a, you know, it's not just in, in our industry, whether it's coaching
Speaker:or being a psychologist, as you say, it can be leading teams, right?
Speaker:You lead people, everyone's got problems, and it's very hard to detach from that,
Speaker:and it can become quite consuming.
Speaker:So I just say to people, you gotta make sure you put good
Speaker:boundaries around yourself.
Speaker:And I say to every psychologist who's ever set foot in my office or my
Speaker:practice, or whatever it is, to say, Hey, we didn't cause the problem.
Speaker:So we aren't responsible for fixing it.
Speaker:We have to have the approach that we understand it and we can
Speaker:help, but we didn't cause it.
Speaker:So we need to really just put the emphasis around them and helping people understand
Speaker:they have a responsibility in this.
Speaker:And if we're getting consumed by what do you think and what we
Speaker:should do, we have the courage to say, Hey listen, I don't know.
Speaker:'cause it's not my life.
Speaker:All I can do is say to you, this could help, this could work.
Speaker:And being very deliberate around that, but to, to not be hooked on it is impossible.
Speaker:So you just gotta, again, I walk out the door, I work really hard to.
Speaker:Understand the emotions and the feelings.
Speaker:I, I used to have a little bit of a process where I would shut
Speaker:my office door, like my front office door is, all right, sweet.
Speaker:Whatever's in there, stays in there and try to work hard to disconnect from it.
Speaker:That hasn't been simple, and all I always say to listen is if you are hooked on it
Speaker:or you are caught up in it, that doesn't make you a bad person or an effective
Speaker:helper, but you have to have the courage to work out how you can keep yourself
Speaker:space and be focused but not consumed.
Speaker:So just.
Speaker:Maybe that might help someone say, not my problem, but I would wanna work my
Speaker:hardest to collaborate, to be effective in terms of working with this person
Speaker:and me to come up with a, a plan.
Speaker:'cause that's all it is a plan.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It'll still change.
Speaker:That is such a great, such a great response to that question.
Speaker:It's probably the best one I've heard.
Speaker:Oh, and what you said there about it's not your fault, you didn't cause the problem.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like, and I think that's the pattern it certainly has been for me Yeah.
Speaker:In my life.
Speaker:Is, is that being responsible for how other people feel and Yeah.
Speaker:And, um, there's a lot of.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Youngsters as well.
Speaker:It's like, yeah, they, they take it upon themselves to make mom and dad happy.
Speaker:Of course.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, and, uh, it can be a pattern of a lifetime for sure.
Speaker:It can be.
Speaker:And that can be a lot of cultural things as well.
Speaker:So I'm super conscious that what I'm saying is not to be taken as specific
Speaker:advice, it's just general advice, but knowing that within yourself, if
Speaker:that's your tendency, it doesn't make you a bad person, but it is gonna
Speaker:make you an effective eventually.
Speaker:So you've gotta be conscious about how you space it out and step back from that.
Speaker:Because it, yeah, as you can appreciate, it can have a, a
Speaker:lifelong impact on, on people.
Speaker:And that's, um, not fair to the person who's trying to keep everyone happy,
Speaker:but doesn't have the ability to do that.
Speaker:'cause we're human beings.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:And it's not your job anyway.
Speaker:Um, correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Ha.
Speaker:Have you taken any time to have a think about like, the future of, not, maybe
Speaker:not as big as humanity, but the, the impact, like the bigger impact that
Speaker:you could have beyond what you do now?
Speaker:Like, I'm sure.
Speaker:Whether you've witnessed it firsthand or you just know the ripple effect
Speaker:of someone comes in to, sees you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Then they show up in their life in a, in a better way, and then that ripples through
Speaker:all the people they come in contact with.
Speaker:Have you had a thought, think about like what's sort of the
Speaker:bigger vision for, for you?
Speaker:Or, or maybe just for, for how we operate as people in general,
Speaker:for the next generation of people who do the work that we do.
Speaker:Yeah, it's a, that's a really great question and I appreciate you asking it.
Speaker:And if my wife's listening to this, she will say, she'll be
Speaker:nodding here going, yeah, he is.
Speaker:Got plenty of ideas.
Speaker:Don't worry about that.
Speaker:Some of them not so good.
Speaker:But, um, plenty of ideas.
Speaker:Plenty of ideas.
Speaker:I, um, I'm, I'm really conscious about trying to make sure, first and
Speaker:foremost that, that I'm being a sort of.
Speaker:The person that is very, um, effective in the work I do.
Speaker:And then I'm sort of trying to ripple that out to, to the people that work
Speaker:with us in terms of psychologists, or even our admin staff as well.
Speaker:Making sure that we as a business are doing what we can do to make a difference.
Speaker:And even if that's not having someone come in, even it's just a phone call
Speaker:and say, oh, okay, well we can't afford that or we can't do this.
Speaker:All right, well this is an option, or that's an option.
Speaker:Just trying to be helpers.
Speaker:Um, in terms of bigger picture stuff, I, I'm really conscious
Speaker:about trying to, you're a parent.
Speaker:I'm a parent.
Speaker:Trying to make sure that we're not.
Speaker:Forcing our kids down certain ways or saying, oh, you've gotta be like me.
Speaker:But really challenging them to be better, saying, all right, well I've
Speaker:given you this and that, and this is what I'd like to see you do better.
Speaker:Um, and then just challenging them to be bigger and better and faster and stronger
Speaker:in their own way, in their own time.
Speaker:So that's not necessarily about replicating what I did.
Speaker:And I've got, you know, a 10, uh, uh, adult son now, and
Speaker:he's a little bit up and down.
Speaker:So just trying to challenge him to.
Speaker:Be like me, right?
Speaker:Like in terms of I didn't work myself out towards his mid twenties and he's in that
Speaker:sort of stage, you know mate, it's okay.
Speaker:You're exactly like me.
Speaker:Just you've gotta work something out and I really want you to be
Speaker:better, not 'cause it's gonna make me happy, but it'll make you happy.
Speaker:And just trying to think about that intergenerational opportunity.
Speaker:So that might sound a little bit pie in the sky, but that's just
Speaker:sort of approach I'm having.
Speaker:How do we help them be better and more effective, not like us or do
Speaker:what we've done, but hopefully try and do it better or differently.
Speaker:Oh, I don't think pie in the sky at all.
Speaker:I actually love it.
Speaker:If anything, I reckon you've gotta go bigger.
Speaker:Like I think I might, um, I'm might have to speak to your wife and, and tell her
Speaker:to push you in to go see a psychologist.
Speaker:She would love that.
Speaker:Slow down on the ideas.
Speaker:Just tell 'em, slow down on the ideas because they're a bit scary stuff of them.
Speaker:Oh, it's fantastic.
Speaker:Uh, similar experience for me as a dad, as a, as a 18-year-old.
Speaker:Male as well.
Speaker:It is like they, they compared us to themselves.
Speaker:To us in so many ways and, and unfavorably.
Speaker:And I have to remind him quite often going, mate, I've been doing life for
Speaker:a lot longer than you and Correct.
Speaker:And you just learn things along the way.
Speaker:You do.
Speaker:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
Speaker:'cause this is something I've been sort of thinking about a lot, is there's an
Speaker:element of them trying to emulate us.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And what you described is, is spot on is like, no, no.
Speaker:Like it's not, it's not trying to.
Speaker:Yes, be like us for all the good parts, but it's like, how
Speaker:can, how can you be better?
Speaker:Um, but do it at your own pace.
Speaker:In your own way.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, it's, it's good.
Speaker:It's good you say that.
Speaker:I, and I did hear your, um, your podcast from a few weeks ago where you
Speaker:were talking about dads and emulating and the pressure of that and, and
Speaker:I, and never said it to my son, but just something you said to them.
Speaker:I said, mate, if you could go back and see me when I was your age, you
Speaker:would not, you'd be laughing off going, what is this bull fed doing, mate?
Speaker:I'm not as bad as that.
Speaker:So, you know, they don't see that.
Speaker:They just say this version of it, which has still got a work in progress.
Speaker:But yeah, that's, that's a fair point.
Speaker:But, but what you are talking about there is exactly what we,
Speaker:I find with, if you ever work on, I've worked with a few elite.
Speaker:Like sporting parents that have had kids in different sports, the way
Speaker:they operate is so calm and most of them are so, hey, well listen.
Speaker:I know how I got to the top.
Speaker:It wasn't because.
Speaker:Dad maybe do this or mom maybe do that, or Mom was leader, dad was lead.
Speaker:'cause I just loved it and I did it right.
Speaker:So you, you watch it and you would've experienced it.
Speaker:Elite level sports parents who've been through it know that their kids may
Speaker:not be the best swimmer or runner or football player and sometimes they
Speaker:steer away and go, oh, I played footy.
Speaker:You should go and play soccer.
Speaker:Or I played cricket.
Speaker:You should go and play baseball.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:'cause I don't want you comparing.
Speaker:They just wanna be able to do their own thing and they're, they're a lot more
Speaker:calm 'cause they understand the process.
Speaker:So it's more us parents, myself included that, you know.
Speaker:Wanted to be something in Word, you go, well, if I, if I had the
Speaker:opportunities you had, I'd be elite.
Speaker:And you go, all right, so you put pressure on 'em.
Speaker:But those parents that did it themselves, so what I'm saying
Speaker:to you is exactly that, mate.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Just create space, let 'em do it their own way.
Speaker:Give 'em the framework, keep 'em in the tram tracks.
Speaker:If they're outside, bring 'em back.
Speaker:If they're inside and bounce around.
Speaker:Just let 'em bounce around.
Speaker:So it's easy to say, hard to do, but like you were talking about
Speaker:earlier, like they don't have to emulate or do what I've done.
Speaker:Just try and create opportunities for 'em to thrive and grow in their own way.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:That will make a massive difference in the world, I reckon.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:And I think we probably underestimate as parents at times, just what
Speaker:a positive impact we can have.
Speaker:I, I've used this story probably a million times, but it one
Speaker:that really stuck with me when.
Speaker:My daughter must have been only seven or eight.
Speaker:And we, we are going through the cash register at the supermarket, and, and
Speaker:the woman there looked just miserable.
Speaker:And, and my daughter looks at her name tag, reads her name,
Speaker:calls her by name and says, oh, hi, so and so, how are you going?
Speaker:And of course, the mood of that woman just changed.
Speaker:That's awesome.
Speaker:And, and I just remember thinking, wow, like, yeah.
Speaker:That's, that is amazing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then, and then the next interaction with the person after Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Is completely different.
Speaker:'cause this woman's whole day's been changed.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's the potential, you know, we, we obviously learn so much more from
Speaker:our kids than what, what Correct.
Speaker:Teach them it.
Speaker:Um Correct.
Speaker:It's an awesome story.
Speaker:And that's the power of making a difference, right?
Speaker:Something simple like that made that person's day and the next person's day.
Speaker:So no, that's a great story.
Speaker:Uh, she sounds like an awesome person.
Speaker:Well, like anyone, not without her challenges, but Yeah.
Speaker:Of, well, of course.
Speaker:But, um, I think some, some people just come sort of more natural with that.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But again, it's like that, that opportunity for us as parents to, to
Speaker:be able to have that positive effect if we are doing it in a more gentle
Speaker:and and guiding way rather than a Yeah.
Speaker:This is how it has to be.
Speaker:I just, just, I was just thinking as you were talking, I wonder
Speaker:if this is part of the problem.
Speaker:Well, there'd be two extremes.
Speaker:Some parents push their children, like our generation, push them really hard so that
Speaker:they almost are repeating the pattern.
Speaker:But for me, I, I probably.
Speaker:Felt like I didn't get pushed enough, and I would've liked more, more
Speaker:guidance and more steering towards some of those things maybe that I.
Speaker:Yeah, I was good at, but yeah.
Speaker:What sort of experience have you had with Yeah, no, I would agree.
Speaker:No, I, I would agree.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I probably in the same vein, like I would've loved a little bit
Speaker:more, um, pushing or guidance or whatever it is, right?
Speaker:Not that it was bad, just that's how it was.
Speaker:And thankfully I found the feet and it's fine.
Speaker:But yeah, I agree.
Speaker:There's a, there's a balance between too much and, and not enough.
Speaker:Um, so, so I would say to people just err on the side of.
Speaker:Balance.
Speaker:But yeah, I definitely think there's a fine line between, you know,
Speaker:too much pushing and not enough.
Speaker:So you're right, like we talked about, just try and provide that framework.
Speaker:If they're outside the framework, bring 'em back in.
Speaker:But if they're bounce around within it, step back and breathe and understand
Speaker:that you probably did the same.
Speaker:Not you, but people probably did exactly the same thing.
Speaker:So if you just were more reflective of our own life and went, well,
Speaker:I know what I was doing then.
Speaker:So as long as they're within the guidelines, give 'em some space and time
Speaker:and give 'em that good bit of feedback and plant seeds and mostly it works out okay.
Speaker:Probably better than we imagined.
Speaker:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I'm just so thankful that there was no social media back in our day.
Speaker:'cause like you said,
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:If the walls of Uni Canberra could talk.
Speaker:Uh, Joel, you've been really generous with your time and I know you've
Speaker:gotta go shortly, so I just like any sort of closing thoughts or
Speaker:anything you wanna pass on to anyone who's invested in themselves in this
Speaker:last sort of 50, 50 or so minutes.
Speaker:Yeah, look, I really appreciate the opportunity and thank you mate.
Speaker:I've really enjoyed talking to you and um, yeah, I've got a lot of out out
Speaker:of today's conversations I would just say to people like, let, let's really
Speaker:work hard on that self-compassion.
Speaker:You've talked about it in other podcasts and we've talked about it today in
Speaker:terms of comparison and emulating.
Speaker:I really just wanna encourage people to slow down and.
Speaker:Think about what's happening to them internally.
Speaker:You're not gonna be able to physically manhandle or change
Speaker:something in a heartbeat.
Speaker:You've gotta have the courage to be able to be self-compassionate,
Speaker:be reflective, really think about where you are at, because the only
Speaker:person you can influence is yourself.
Speaker:And by chasing or comparing or contrasting and doing all those sort of
Speaker:things, you're just actually getting.
Speaker:Further away from where you want to go.
Speaker:So I'm not suggesting you just kick back and give up and whatever it is, it
Speaker:is, but also having the courage to just create that good little boundary between,
Speaker:yeah, I wanna be really efficient, very structured, but also I want to be flexible
Speaker:within that to understand how I feel.
Speaker:Good day, bad day.
Speaker:Sometimes I do it right, sometimes I don't.
Speaker:But just really work hard to be more self-compassionate,
Speaker:more at ease within yourself.
Speaker:I think if people can get that right, the rest of it takes care of itself.
Speaker:Great answer, mate.
Speaker:Thank you again for coming on.
Speaker:I appreciate it.
Speaker:No, no problem, Dan.
Speaker:Thanks very much for having me.
Speaker:It's been great chatting too.
Speaker:Cheers, please.
Speaker:That's it for today's episode with Joel Curtis.
Speaker:It was a deep dive into the power of structure, self-reflection, and
Speaker:embracing your strengths to improve both mental and emotional performance.
Speaker:As you think about what we've discussed, consider how these lessons
Speaker:can shape your own life game plan.
Speaker:Creating structure in your life to bring clarity and direction.
Speaker:Spending time in self-reflection to understand your growth areas, practicing
Speaker:self-compassion to become your own best ally, using your strengths based
Speaker:approach to maximize your natural abilities and owning your emotions
Speaker:to take full control of your perform.
Speaker:If today's conversation resonated with you, or you know, someone who
Speaker:could benefit from these insights, please share this episode with them.
Speaker:It could make a real difference in their journey.
